The following debate originally took place on my Facebook wall, upon my post, “Props to All 7,000 Peace-Loving Israelis Who Protested in Tel-Aviv Against Gaza Massacre!“…
Rayn: In Tel Aviv, Thousands Protest Against the Gaza Operation:
Props to every last the 7,000 peace-loving citizens of Israel who risked their safety on Saturday to gather together at Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square in order to firmly let the world know that being Jewish DOES NOT mean being PRO-WAR-CRIMES against the innocent civilians of Gaza! These brave Israeli war protesters faced off against an angry mob of their own fellow citizen-terrorists from the right wing, who not only chanted death threats at them, and continuously sang a song celebrating the IDF’s mass murder of Gazan children, but also eventually forced their way through police barricades, where they immediately began to block protesters from accessing one of Tel Aviv’s major streets. After the cavalry cops finally arrived and broke the up the roving mob, police then requested organizers to wrap up their event early for “safety” reasons. Protesters complied, disbanding without further incident…
Some excerpts from the article…
“The former demonstration was organized by Hadash, the leftist political party, and the organizations Combatants for Peace and The Parents Circle Families Forum…
The ill-will felt towards the Israeli left could be gauged well among the group of right-wing protesters that the police corralled in a separate part of the plaza. They continually shouted ‘Death to the leftists’ and expressed hope that ‘a rocket from Gaza’ would kill them. In addition they merrily sang ‘WHY IS THERE NO SCHOOL IN GAZA? BECAUSE NO MORE KIDS ARE LEFT.’ [emphasis mine] Some protesters tried to convince this group to stop singing these songs as they were detrimental to the message of support for the IDF that they were trying to promote, but to no avail.
Later in the evening these right-wing protesters tried to break through the police barrier into the greater demonstration and even succeeded for a short while to block Ibn Gevirol St., one of Tel Aviv’s major arteries. The police quickly pushed them out of the street with cavalry. During the clashes four protesters were arrested. Due to these outbursts of violence the police asked the organizers to cut the protest short. The demonstrators eventually left without incident.”
Here is a video recording of the large group of right-wing Israelis who showed up to this peace-promoting event in Tel Aviv in order to celebrate the Israeli government’s Gazan massacre, gleefully singing and chanting, “There’s no school tomorrow! There’s no children left in Gaza! Oleh!”:
Melissa M.: Really? IDFs mass murder? Their people wouldn’t be getting killed if they weren’t operating out of their homes and in front of their citizens. What is Israel supposed to do? If they see they are being targeted from a civilians home they need to take the home out. Of course it’s a no win for anyone but Hamas is giving Israel no choice.
Melissa M.: Hamas has not honored the cease fire agreements so what is Israel supposed to do
Genaire: Israel is suppose to not keep these people in an open air prison. Israel is suppose to stop illegally expanding its borders into Palestinian territory.Israel is suppose to either give these people the right to take part in their government our release them from occupation (that has lasted 40+ years). Israel suppose to not intentionally target journalists offices. Israel is suppose to not intentionally target schools. Israel is suppose to not intentionally target UN facilities. Israel is suppose to not target children playing on the beach.Israel is suppose to not be a state based on an apartheid system. Should I go on?
Rayn: Yes. Really, Melissa. I consider the actions of the IDF to be mass murder, as well as a Crimes Against Humanity (or a War Crime, if you’re willing to qualify the Israeli government’s attack against the civilians of Gaza as a “war”). To blame Hamas for the massacre of Gazan civilians is a flawed exercise in causality. Since IDF forces are the ones pulling the triggers of their weapons, and executing trial-free death warrants on the hundreds upon hundreds of innocent, unaffiliated civilians of Gaza, all in pursuit of Hamas – terrorizing men, women and children, alike, in the process – truly, these victims “wouldn’t be getting killed if ” Israel’s government would simply refuse to indiscriminately murder them, and finally reject the immoral claim that such criminal activity EVER qualifies as a “right,” or as “self-defense,” since such logic is, indeed, EXACTLY the IDEOLOGY of a TERRORIST!!! What Israel is “supposed to do” is RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS! They absolutely have a “choice,” and have chosen the COWARD’S ROUTE!
Genaire: Spoken like a Champion, Rayn 🙂
Melissa M.: I’m not into debating we agree to disagree . just was wondering what exactly u thought israel was supposed to do when they were getting bombarded with Rockets. I do see it as self defense, u don’t that’s fine. It’s America we are all free to have an opinion.
Melissa M.: I do see your point though that it isn’t their fault that they are under Hamas power. I don’t think there is a clear answer though if there was this mess would be done with
Genaire: They’ll go in to steal these people homes, but choose to indiscriminately launch missiles into heavily populated areas. If you want a complete and total genocide and steal these people’s land what better way then through long range missile attack, while closing their borders preventing escape.
Melissa M.: But if they didnt respond don’t u think Israel would be in great danger?
Melissa M.: Anyway i gotta drive
Genaire: Not a single Israeli citizen has been killed by Hamas’s rockets. They place themselves in danger with the illegal land grab that has taken place (against international law).
Rayn: By stating that you “agree to disagree,” Melissa, I hope you’re not expecting my silence on the matter, as I have much to say on the topic…
To begin, I should repeat the following statements I made on a separate post very recently, entitled “Israel Cuts Off Water Supply to Gaza Strip, Yet Again…“):
“Statists (much like the terrorists they spawn, fund, then war with) love collectivism, man-made borders, violence and the institutionalization of ritualistic human sacrifice. And, though I still find it repulsive, I am barely surprised anymore when a Statist uses one of my FB peace-posts to proudly declare to the world that these things, alone, are legitimate enough causes for their legions to commit mass murder against innocent civilians they’ve never even met, for decades at a time! Statism does not concern itself with justice and morality, because these things would only hinder the control and power over human beings it is really after. And, at the same time, the State refuses to fully acknowledge Individuality because it simply isn’t convenient to its rapidly-expanding meat-grinder control-grid. Individuality only serves as evidence that it is illegitimate for the State to invoke such final, death-penalty punishments against groups of innocent humans without even providing any direct evidence of the alleged crimes being committed by each member! Statism is just another tool of oppression, in the arsenal of the Accuser!
Statism is responsible for more slaughters in this last century than all private citizens, combined! The Monopoly On Force that the State holds is its true source of strength, and also, it’s corruption and downfall. As a general rule of thumb, the more a Statist eagerly insists that he and his legions of armed thugs have the right to murder innocents, the more illegitimate and immoral he is proving himself and his system to be! Statism is a diseased ideology that is SO FLAWED, it cannot even stand the “competition” of humanity’s ancient stateless societies co-existing nearby it, since they serve as a harsh reminder of humanity’s organic, free-spirited, Individualistic, tribal, natural roots. That is why the agenda for the State to demonize such free-range human beings always continues on, no matter the era, nor setting!
For past examples, look no further than Britain, the US and Canada. Then, remember that today’s brand-new, 1948-established Israel, much like her older sister nations, the US and Canada, is a made-in-England production! And, the English crown has a well-documented formula for foreign-continental acquisition and take-over: (1) settler emmigration to new foreign land, (2) subsequent State-formation, followed by (3) imperialization, and (4) occupation, while (5) making racist references to indigenous human beings as “savages/demons/evil/backwards/relics,” so that they are (6) slaughtered by the newly-minted State army, then (7) forced into concentration camps upon surviving, only to then be (8) targeted for use of biological, chemical and/or physical warfare as a means of concentration camp population control and/or a complete genocide.”
Rayn: Then, I would add this, which is an updated version of a post I made a few days ago, entitled “In the Past Two Weeks, Israel’s Government Has Massacred Nearly 600 Gazan Civilians, Because… Terrorism!“:
“According to the latest figures from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), Israeli military forces have killed an estimated 1,065 Gazans since their July 7th launch of Operation “Protective Edge.” About 75% of this total represents civilian casualties. In other words, approximately 795 civilians have been murdered by Israel’s government so far, with about 229 of that total being children, and 118 being women, which together represent 44% of all civilian deaths…
United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs – Gaza Crisis:
Sadly, these numbers reveal that the world’s “Most Moral Army” has snuffed out the lives of more children than it has killed Hamas “militants” in its latest war-criminal adventures inside Gaza! Gazan youths represent one fifth of the Israeli governments total killings, and almost one third of their total civilian murder victims!
Israel’s Offensive in Gaza has ‘Killed More Children than Fighters’, Say Human Rights Groups:
‘No Safe Place for Civilians’ in Gaza, United Nations Says:
Israel’s Gaza Offensive Has Killed Child Every Hour for Two Days:
Israel’s government is executing a full-scale massacre of purely cowardly proportions – to the welcoming cheers of celebrating Israeli audiences, in some cases!
Israel-Gaza Conflict: ‘Sderot Cinema’ Image Shows Israelis with Popcorn and Chairs ‘Cheering as Missiles Strike Palestinian Targets’:
We’re talking about three murdered Gazan civilians for every one dead Hamas “militant,” with one of those three civilians being a child! That’s the math of straight-up massacre, no matter how Israel’s government and supporters spin it! And, as the UN reported, there is no place for innocent civilians to escape the onslaught of high-tech, American-funded-and-shared-with-Israel weaponry!
In criminal law, the Blackstone Ratio is the principle that “it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.” This is closely tied to the “presumption of innocence” inherent to all free and peaceful societies. Anything less than this standard qualifies as oppression and the initiation of aggression against the peaceful. It’s not complicated, nor is it difficult to understand. Those who side with the Accuser against the innocent are the true guilty parties in ALL cases!
To indiscriminately mass murder innocent civilians, including women and children, due to the criminal deeds of a minority segment of a population, in itself, is a criminal deed! And, most of the sovereign nations of the world regard collective punishment against civilian groups as either a crime against humanity, or a war crime!
Israel Attacks Center for Disabled and Mosque in Gaza:
Israeli Tank Shells Compound Housing UN School in Gaza, Killing 15:
Much like the terrorist organization, Hamas, Israel’s government clings to the broken logic that terrorizing innocent civilians is a valid political strategy, rather than a crime! For every civilian that Israel’s military murders, Hamas is only given further legitimacy as “just another political party,” simply operating within the framework of the “political reality on the ground” whenever they engage in their own civilian-targeting adventures, just like they’ve been claiming all along…
The irony of the situation is clear: if having one’s civilians targeted for death is just cause to simply murder more civilians, as the Israeli government continues to claim, then by such a pathetic standard, Hamas, much like Israel, suddenly emerges from the equation not as a terrorist group, like most of us thought, but rather, a courageous group of misunderstood heroes simply “defending” their residences and civilians from a decades-long campaign of Israeli government aggression against civilians living within one of the world’s largest open-air refugee prisons. But, it’s a good thing that most don’t subscribe to such an erroneous viewpoint when it comes to Hamas! Yet, the Israeli government’s use of this same rotten reasoning illicits silence from most, and even open encouragement from some!
In his work, “Dissertation on First Principles of Government,” Thomas Paine revealed one of the most important portions of the formula for freedom, writing:
“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.”
When terrorist organizations like Hamas and the Israeli government murder civilians back and forth as some sort of “acceptable” means of achieving their respective political agendas, the moral vacuum created by their wanton disregard for human life threatens to expand and envelop the entirety of humanity, if not properly CHECKED! This is especially true when the escalation leading up to today occurred so incrementally, and with so much compartmentalization, that most are unaware of the originating source of the current conflict.
Finally, considering the dubious relationship between Israel and Hamas, murdered Gazan civilians seems to be a major goal for BOTH parties, with over 1.5 million innocent Gazan refugees trapped in the middle, to be sacrificed as political pawns!
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas:
Melissa M.: I can link a bunch of websites that support my opinion also but I won’t Bc like I said dont like to debate it’s just back and forth on what each other believes again I agree to disagree. By saying that I am not saying to be silent do as you please it’s your fb account. I was curious in your post that’s all.
Rayn: That’s all well and good, but opinions do not trump the Truth. It is ALWAYS wrong to murder the innocent. This is not a conditional statement. There are no exceptions. There are no exemptions.
These disingenuous claims by Israel’s government, and its supporters, for the right to “Self-defense” against the CIVILIANS OF GAZA in pursuit of HAMAS are PATENTLY FALSE, because the civilians of Gaza are an INNOCENT PARTY, having COMMITTED NO AGGRESSION against Israelis, whatsoever!
Alison K.: By pretty much any definition of the word, the Israeli government are terrorists. I think the matching uniforms throw people off…. Their self defense ‘argument of convienence’ would be comical if it weren’t murderous