Are Obama’s Claims of Progressing Civil Rights and the American Economy Actually Legitimate?

The following debate originally took place on my Facebook wall, upon my post, “Hooray! The “Lesser of Two Evils” Has Prevailed!“…

Rayn: The sheeple have spoken, and the “lesser of two evils” has prevailed! More wars! More drone strikes! More murdered civilians! More indefinite detentions! More torture! More names on the “Presidential Kill List”! More assassinations of American citizens! Yay for democracy! Hooray for progress!

"Americans used to fight fascists, now they vote for them"

“Americans used to fight fascists, now they vote for them”

Brian J.But yay for women’s rights, healthcare, gay rights, and the middle-class. Obama kills for an actual reason, even though it’s wrong. Bush killed for no reason. Obama is at least trying to catch the terrorists, that the CIA creates. LOL! At least that’s some progress. But America is gonna get even better in the next four years, and I get to relax. And I voted Libertarian! Who would of thunk it?! 🙂

James J.Obama spent more on the war then bush ever did and is a drone strike fanatic and it is proven drone strikes kills are 80% civilian including woman and children and he also supports every bad thing we hated about bush including the patriot act which allows him to detain anyone for what ever reason and hold them with out trial not including his own recklessness with the war that gots his own commanders worried what he is going to do next

Daniel F.Tonight was a victory for the American people. The repuglicans’ attempts at voter suppression may very well have backfired in a major way, as all over the country people refused to be deterred by long lines from casting their votes. Romney and the rethuglicans had nothing to run on aside from bigotry and fear, and in the end all that cash from the Koch-heads and Adelson ended up being for nothing. The plutocrats were hell-bent on making sure that Elizabeth Warren never got anywhere near the Senate, and they failed at that. Those Akin and Turdock creatures found out the hard way that such comments on rape do not go over well even in states like Missouri and Indiana. And in Colorado and Washington, voters actually voted to legalize recreational use of marijuana. And most importantly we are reminded that the winner of an election is not the candidate who can raise the most money, but the candidate who gets the most votes.

GenaireBrian, we all lose. Only those looking for handout seem to think the opposite.

Brian J.Actually, we don’t. Obama hasn’t been perfect, and he has committed war crimes. But the economy is getting better, more jobs are being created, and the unemployment rate is going down. He’s definitely a better choice than Romney, and I think he’s gonna become a good president for the American people. But if you’re a terrorist that we created, watch out! Lol!

Brian J.Obama has done many good things for the American people, during the last four years. You just don’t hear about it, due to the lack of coverage on what he’s done. Sadly, his focus on using the Patriot Act, and drone attacks, gets more attention. And he hasn’t started any new wars. He ended one war, and has only used drone attacks, without creating another war, or spending more money.

GenaireBrian, why do you keep comparing Obama to Romney? Our political system has more than two political parties. Yes, we, in your mind may have elected into office the lesser of the two evils, but we had more than two choices. He can create all the jobs in the world – with the money he spends on war, it won’t matter.

Rayn: Obama HAS started new wars, Brian. We already discussed this, when you made this claim previously. Therefore, I will just cut and paste what I already wrote to you in our last discussion on the subject (http://acidrayn.com/2012/10/15/has-obama-been-helping-to-restore-america-or-is-he-just-another-warmongering-corporate-puppet/):

Obama actually escalated America’s war in Afghanistan, while also aggressively continuing war operations in Pakistan, and authorizing new military strikes against Yemen, Libya and Somalia. Therefore, he has unequivocally engaged the U.S. in EVEN MORE WAR:

The Nine Surges of Obama’s War [in Afghanistan] (December 2009 article):
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/10/opinion/main5962574.shtml

Obama’s 262 Drone Strikes in Pakistan (June 2012 article):
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2012/06/obama_drone_strikes_the_president_ordered_more_than_george_w_bush.html

Obama Ramps Up Covert [Drone] War in Yemen (June 2011 article):
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/opinion/bergen-yemen-drone-war/index.html

White House Defends Continuing U.S. Military Role in Libya Operation (June 2011 article):
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/06/16/us/politics/16powers.html?referrer=

Obama (Finally) Notifies Congress of Troops Deployed to Libya and Yemen (September 2012 article):
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/obama-notifies-congress-of-troops-deployed-to-libya-and-yemen/

Obama’s New War in Uganda (October 2011 article):
http://spectator.org/articles/36660/obamas-new-war-uganda

Obama Acknowledges Waging War in Somalia in Latest War Powers Report (June 2012 article):
http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/18/president-obama-acknowledges-waging-war
____________________________________________________

Then, there’s the matter of Obama’s numerous threats to engage in even more new wars that the ones just mentioned:

Obama Threatens Force Against Syria (August 2012 article):
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/world/middleeast/obama-threatens-force-against-syria.html?referrer=

Obama Ordered Wave of Cyberattacks Against Iran (June 2012 article):
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/middleeast/obama-ordered-wave-of-cyberattacks-against-iran.html?referrer=

Armada of US and British Naval Power Amassing in Persian Gulf, Prepared for Possible Iran Strike (September 2012):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-international-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

Genaire:

RaynAs for your assertions about Obama making the economy better, and bringing down the unemployment rate, Brian, you are SIMPLY REPEATING OLD CLAIMS that I have already PROVEN to be FALSE! Therefore, I will simply cut and paste from the previous discussion we had on the topic:
(http://acidrayn.com/2012/10/15/has-obama-been-helping-to-restore-america-or-is-he-just-another-warmongering-corporate-puppet/
):

“After you first mentioned unemployment rates going down under Obama, I replied with the question, ‘by who’s measure?’ And, as I figured, you simply compare Obama to himself, which is no real measure, at all, when considering the fact that the unemployment rate was 7.8% when he first took office! And, it remained well above 9% throughout a great portion of his presidency, averaging to exactly 9.06%, so far:

Unemployment Rates from 2002-2012:
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

President Obama Faces Highest Unemployment Rate in History Six Months Prior to an Election (May 2012 article):
http://www.pionline.com/article/20120504/CHARTOFDAY/120509928

____________________________________________________

As for ‘job creation,’ let’s take a DEEPER look at employment figures in the US, to get a FULL picture of such claims. This will also help to reveal much more about the state of the economy, as well as the state of the middle-class:

95% of Net Jobs Lost During Recession Were Middle-Class Jobs (May 2012 article):
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-05-01/obama-fails-to-stem-middle-class-slide-he-blamed-on-bush

58% of Jobs Created During the Recovery Have Been Low-Wage Positions (August 2012 article):
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/31/news/economy/low-wage-jobs/index.html?iid=HP_LN

Only 24.6% of All Employment Qualifies as “Good Jobs,” Down from 27.4% in 1979 (July 2012 article):
http://www.cepr.net/press-center/press-releases/the-share-of-good-jobs-has-fallen-since-1979
(A “good job” pays at least $18.50 an hour, provides health insurance options, and access to a retirement plan)

53% of Recent College Grads Are Jobless or Underemployed (April 2012 article):
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/53-of-recent-college-grads-are-jobless-or-underemployed-how/256237/

Minimum Wage in U.S. Fails to Beat Inflation: Chart of the Day (December 2011 article):
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-12-28/minimum-wage-in-u-s-fails-to-beat-inflation-chart-of-the-day
(‘Workers in the U.S. earning the minimum wage are worse off now than they were four decades ago’)

Over 100 Million Now Receiving Federal Welfare (August 2012 article):
http://m.weeklystandard.com/blogs/over-100-million-now-receiving-federal-welfare_649589.html

Food Stamp Usage Continues Climbing To Highest Level Ever (August 2011 article):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/03/food-stamp-usage-highest_n_917038.html
____________________________________________________

Speaking of foodstamps, what a perfect opportunity to segway into some important statistics about corporate profits:

Report: JP Morgan Makes Over Half a Billion Dollars Off Food Stamps (October 2012 article):
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/10/01/report-jp-morgan-makes-over-half-a-billion-dollars-off-food-stamps/

Corporate Profits Just Hit An All-Time High, Wages Just Hit An All-Time Low (June 2012 article):
http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-profits-just-hit-an-all-time-high-wages-just-hit-an-all-time-low-2012-6

Income Gap Between Rich and Poor in the US WIDEST EVER (September 2010 article):
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-6907321.html

And, of course, I must once again include this article:

Corporate America Has Best Quarter in US History as Real Unemployment Rate Soars:
http://acidrayn.com/2010/11/24/corporate-america-has-best-quarter-in-us-history-as-real-unemployment-rate-soars/
____________________________________________________

Meanwhile, in more disturbing news: 

List of Top 12 Corporate Welfare Queens (June 2011 article):
http://www.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/06/soaring_to_new_heights_thanks.php
(In order, that would be: Boeing, American Electric Power, DuPont, Exxon Mobil, FedEx, GE, Honeywell, IBM, United Technologies, Verizon, Wells Fargo, and Yahoo. “Together, Citizens for Tax Justice asserts, these corporate behemoths, rather than paying taxes on their collective $171 billion in profit from 2008 to 2010, actually got 1.5 percent in tax refunds–$2.5 billion–from Uncle Sam. They also received $62.4 billion in tax subsidies.”)

Corporate Welfare Cost Taxpayers $100 Billion in FY 2012 (August 2012 article):
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/townhallcomstaff/2012/08/07/corporate_welfare_cost_taxpayer_100_billion_in_fy_2012vv

Thousands of Millionaires Collect Unemployment (October 2012 article):
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/10/thousands-of-millionaires-collect-unemployment/
(‘[In 2009] a total of $20.8 million in unemployment benefits went to this group’)”

RaynHere’s the rest of the quote, since it was too much to post at once:

“Criminal Prosecutions for Financial Institution Fraud Continue to Fall Even Lower Under Obama (November 2011 article):

http://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/267/
____________________________________________________

Yet, some of the BIGGEST financial scandals in HISTORY are happening under Obama’s term as president, starting with the Foreclosure Scandal that broke around the Fall of 2010:

The Mortgage Fraud Scandal Is The Biggest Real Estate Scandal In Human History (October 2010 article):
http://www.businessinsider.com/mortgage-fraud-scandal-2010-10

Why the Foreclosure Fraud Mess Could Last for Years (October 2010 article):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39562824/ns/business-real_estate/

Fraudulant ‘Robo-signing’ of Mortgages Still a Problem (July 2011 article):
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-20080533.html

FBI Estimates 80% of Mortgage Fraud Involved Industry Insiders (December 2011 article):
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/12/fbi-estimates-80-of-mortgage-fraud-involved-industry-insiders/

Wells Fargo Insiders Detail Foreclosure Fraud Practices: ‘It’s Exactly Like An Assembly Line’ (April 2012 article):
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/20/468442/wells-fargo-insider/

Fannie Mae Ranks Banks in ‘Robo-Signing’ Settlement as Top Servicers, No Charges Filed Against Bankers (August 2012):
http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012/08/23/fannie-mae-ranks-banks-in-robo-signing-settlement-as-top-servi/
(Fannie Mae gave three-star ratings to CitiMortgage, JPMorgan Chase, Ally Bank and Wells Fargo — four of the five largest U.S. mortgage servicers, which were involved in the $25 billion “robo-signing” settlement — for their service performance in the first half of 2012)
____________________________________________________

Then, there’s the LIBOR Interest Rate Fixing Scandal:

LIBOR Scandal Set to Rock U.S. as Experts Warn it Could Be ‘the Biggest Consumer Fraud in History’:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172377/LIBOR-scandal-rocks-US-experts-warn-biggest-consumer-fraud-history.html

LIBOR Scandal: Possibly the Biggest Financial Scandal in History (July 2012 article):
http://www.moneytalksnews.com/2012/07/23/libor-scandal-of-the-century/

$800 Trillion in Securities and Loans are Linked to the LIBOR (July 2012 article):
http://capitalfinanceint.com/news/banking/2012/07/barclays-libor-rate-fixing-leads-to-resignations/

LIBOR Manipulating Banksters Get a Slap on the Wrist (June 2012):
http://moneymorning.com/2012/06/29/libor-manipulating-banksters-get-a-slap-on-the-wrist/
____________________________________________________

As for the middle class, this article is just about the most thorough I’ve found on the topic:

84 Statistics That Prove That The Decline Of The Middle Class Is Real And That It Is Getting Worse:
http://thetruthwins.com/archives/84-statistics-that-prove-that-the-decline-of-the-middle-class-is-real-and-that-it-is-getting-worse

And, here’s another important one:

The Middle Class Falls Further Behind (August 2012 article): 
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/22/news/economy/middle-class-pew/index.html
(Just more than half – 51% – of the population was middle class in 2011 compared to 61% in 1971, according to the Pew Research Report)”

RaynAs for your claims that Obama support gay rights, or even women’s rights, for that matter, Brian, it is and ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS, PETTY FALSE COMPROMISE so long as he doesn’t support HUMAN RIGHTS! And, his continuations of wars of aggression, predator drone bombings, indefinite detention, torture, along with his kill list, and ability to assassinate American citizens at will are all in violation of OUR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS!

Genaire: President Obama: The Biggest Government Spender In World History:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/06/14/president-obama-the-biggest-government-spender-in-world-history/

Brian J.Their not even wars. What new wars? Obama has ended the war in Iraq, and hasn’t started another one

Brian J.Well, after looking at those articles, I can see that Obama has started more wars. Which is unnecesary, but I forgive that, because of his support for women’s rights, gay rights, and human rights in America. The war crimes are terrible, but that’s the only thing that I dislike about Obama.

Brian J.And it is the reason, to why I didn’t vote for Obama. But I’m very happy, that Obama beat Romney. Romney would of been even worse.

Brian J.Taxes have actually gone down under Obama. And Obama hasn’t spend nearly as much as Bush in some areas.

Brian J.And how are people asking for a helping hand? Obama is trying to get people back to work, and the economy is getting better 🙂

RaynOf course Obama’s military operations in Yemen, Libya and Somalia are new wars, Brian! And, many classify them as Crimes against peace, since America was not attacked before we engaged these countries, militarily. The real question is: why didn’t you already know about them? Why do most not seem to know? The fact that I had to show you the articles above TWICE before you would even acknowledged them is very telling. Your news sources have betrayed you, and it’s time to look for alternatives…

And, let me state again that Obama didn’t “end the war in Iraq.” His promises about “getting out of Iraq” are just empty political rhetoric, as the American war and occupation of the foreign nation are still ongoing. I already showed you these facts in the SAME previous that discussion we had here (http://acidrayn.com/2012/10/15/has-obama-been-helping-to-restore-america-or-is-he-just-another-warmongering-corporate-puppet/):

Last U.S. Combat Troops Leave Iraq; 50,000 Remain as Advisers (August 2010 article):
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-08-18/news/27073013_1_combat-troops-train-iraqi-forces-2nd-infantry-division

Obama Announces End of Iraq War, Troops to Return Home by Year End (October 2011):
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20123800-503544/obama-announces-end-of-iraq-war-troops-to-return-home-by-year-end/

5,500 Mercenaries to Protect U.S. Fortresses in Iraq (February 2011 article):
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/02/5500-mercs-to-protect-u-s-fortresses-in-iraq/

13,000 U.S. Troops Deployed in Iraq Again (September 2012 article):
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/13000-us-troops-deployed-in-iraq-again

As I said above, “as for your claims that Obama support gay rights, or even women’s rights, for that matter, it is and ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS, PETTY FALSE COMPROMISE so long as he doesn’t support HUMAN RIGHTS! His continuations of wars of aggression, predator drone bombings, indefinite detention, torture, along with his kill list, and ability to assassinate American citizens at will are all in violation of OUR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS!”

I do not consent to be governed by injustice, and I will not negotiate away even one of my natural-borne rights in exchange for the worthless recognition of another. Furthermore, I will not negotiate away the natural-borne rights of any other individual in exchange for the worthless acknowledgment of my own. If our natural-borne rights are not inalienable, then they are really just privileges by another name…

If you believe that “war crimes are terrible,” Brian, then act like it! Stop defending war criminals like Obama, with worthless, illogical and immoral arguments, and start speaking out AGAINST THEM! It’s just like the picture above says: “Americans used to fight fascists. Now they vote for them.” How truly sad…

Brian J.Those sources don’t show that the War in Iraq is continuing. It’s over. And we haven’t started any new wars. How are they new wars?

Brian J.And yes, Obama has done crimes against. But he’s also done many good things for the American people, so I forgive him for his war crimes.

Brian J.We should have a nation of Capitalism, tempered with socialism. Just like Canada. 🙂

RaynDid you not read the articles, Brian? We have thousands of American troops on the ground, along with mercenaries. Critical thinking dictates that represents an ILLEGITIMATE MILITARY OCCUPATION, as it comes on the heels of an illegal War of aggressionbeing a Crime against peace. This makes our occupation an ACT OF WAR, by definition!

5,500 Mercenaries to Protect U.S. Fortresses in Iraq (February 2011 article):
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/02/5500-mercs-to-protect-u-s-fortresses-in-iraq/

13,000 U.S. Troops Deployed in Iraq Again (September 2012 article):
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/13000-us-troops-deployed-in-iraq-again

Brian J.Check out this link.

Rachel Maddow On President Obama & Democrats Accomplishments:

Brian J.Those are wars. Those are troops, being used to protect an Embassy, and 13,000 troops being deployed in Iraq, but not to start a war. So it seems that war is over, and there hasn’t been another war. Critical thinking, suggests that we’re not in a war, since the economy is getting better. 🙂

Brian J.More good things about Obama.

Rachel Maddow on President Obama’s Job Performance to Date:

Brian J.Obama has also done great things for civil rights! 🙂

RaynOur troops and mercenaries in Iraq represent an ILLEGITIMATE MILITARY OCCUPATION, as they come on the heels of an illegal War of aggression against the country by our own. This makes our occupation an ACT OF WAR, by definition! You can’t just dismiss this fact. You’ve provided no just cause to do so. And, they ARE NOT just being used to protect an Embassy. They are protecting military installments all over Iraq, among other things. Try reading the articles I posted! 🙂

Brian J.An illegitimate military operation. I don’t see how this is a war. If we’re at war, then why is the economy getting better?

Brian J.If this is a war, then it’s not as bad as the previous one. Bush’s war, and tax cuts for the rich, broke this country. Obama has lowered taxes for the middle-class. We pay less taxes under Obama, than under Bush. And while we’re fighting more countries, the wars are not breaking our economic progress.

Rayn: OCCUPATION, not operation. Do you know what that is?

Brian J.Right, occupation is not good. I don’t see how that’s a war, but we should stop occupying countries.

Brian J.Obama puts the middle class first.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2012/11/07/44134/why-president-obamas-victory-is-a-victory-for-the-middle-class/

Brian J.And like I keep saying, I do forgive Obama’s war crimes. And I’d forgive any terrorist, that would want to blow me up. But I appreciate what Obama is doing for the American people. He’s done good things for civil rights, minorities, women’s rights, and gay rights. I just can’t ignore it. You can ignore it, and get hung up on war crimes, and complain about that. For me, I choose to forgive that, and focus on the things that are benefiting this country. Hopefully, the next President will end the wars, and stop all the occupation.

RaynIf you do not see how occupation is war, then you do not understand what war is, Brian… Critical thinking dictates that OCCUPATION requires INVASION! Look into the Geneva Conventions to understand international law regarding war. I bet you’d understand a whole lot better if the Chinese army decided to start setting up military bases in America!

Brian J.I understand. But I just can’t be bothered with that, because of the many other great things that Obama is doing. Every leader has both good and bad in them, nothing is purely black and white.

RaynAnd, that americanprogressive.org article you posted addresses NONE of the issues about the ECONOMY! How can it even be called journalism? UNBELIEVABLE! I’ll just have to do what they DIDN’T – provide some SOLID HISTORICAL FACTS:

84 Statistics That Pr
ove That The Decline Of The Middle Class Is Real And That It Is Getting Worse:
http://thetruthwins.com/archives/84-statistics-that-prove-that-the-decline-of-the-middle-class-is-real-and-that-it-is-getting-worse

The Middle Class Falls Further Behind (August 2012 article): 
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/22/news/economy/middle-class-pew/index.html
(Just more than half – 51% – of the population was middle class in 2011 compared to 61% in 1971, according to the Pew Research Report)”

95% of Net Jobs Lost During Recession Were Middle-Class Jobs (May 2012 article):
http://www.bloomberg.com/…/obama-fails-to-stem-middle…

58% of Jobs Created During the Recovery Have Been Low-Wage Positions (August 2012 article):
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/31/news/economy/low-wage-jobs/index.html?iid=HP_LN

Only 24.6% of All Employment Qualifies as “Good Jobs,” Down from 27.4% in 1979 (July 2012 article):
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/the-share-of-good-jobs-has-fallen-since-1979
(A “good job” pays at least $18.50 an hour, provides health insurance options, and access to a retirement plan)

53% of Recent College Grads Are Jobless or Underemployed (April 2012 article):
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/53-of-recent-college-grads-are-jobless-or-underemployed-how/256237/

Minimum Wage in U.S. Fails to Beat Inflation: Chart of the Day (December 2011 article):
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-28/minimum-wage-in-u-s-fails-to-beat-inflation-chart-of-the-day.html
(‘Workers in the U.S. earning the minimum wage are worse off now than they were four decades ago’)

Corporate Profits Just Hit An All-Time High, Wages Just Hit An All-Time Low (June 2012 article):
http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-profits-just-hit-an-all-time-high-wages-just-hit-an-all-time-low-2012-6

Income Gap Between Rich and Poor in the US WIDEST EVER (September 2010 article):
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-6907321.html

Over 100 Million Now Receiving Federal Welfare (August 2012 article):
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/over-100-million-now-receiving-federal-welfare_649589.html

Food Stamp Usage Continues Climbing To Highest Level Ever (August 2011 article):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/03/food-stamp-usage-highest_n_917038.html

Brian J.But the economy has been getting better, and more jobs are getting better. The middleclass has actually been doing better under Obama, than Bush. A lot of the struggles that Obama has gone through, has been because of Bush.

Brian J.There have been a lot of setbacks, but we’re moving forward, not backward 🙂

RaynThe middle class has continued to decline under Obama. It has not been doing better. Read the articles I posted above, about the economy, as they illustrate exactly what has been happening for the past few decades. Here is one, for example:

The Middle
 Class Falls Further Behind (August 2012 article): 
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/22/news/economy/middle-class-pew/index.html
(Just more than half – 51% – of the population was middle class in 2011 compared to 61% in 1971, according to the Pew Research Report)”

Brian J.Keep going. Where did it come from? Bush! Obama has been making things better, but it’s been going slow.

Rayn: Bush wasn’t in office since 1971!

Brian J.This is why Obama won the election, because people didn’t forget about what Bush did. With Obama, the middle class has been getting getting, at a very slow pace.

Brian J.Bush took the bad Clinton ideas, and made them worse. And Obama has been trying to fix it, even though there have been many problems. But Obama should of allowed the banks to go under, and let Wall Street destroy itself, and re-created a better system.

Rayn“Where did it come from,” you ask? Time to go deeper into the rabbit hole:

International Bankster Cartel Uses Fractional Reserve Pyramid Scheme to Control All of America’s Economy By Stealth:

http://acidrayn.com/2010/02/01/international-bankster-cartel-uses-fractional-reserve-pyramid-scheme-to-control-all-of-americas-economy-by-stealth/

Abolishing the Federal Reserve is what America must really do to save the economy!

Brian J.That would work.

RaynObama is just another corporate puppet, helping to perpetuate the corrupt, plutocratic, oligarchical, fascist form of government that we now live under, along with the perpetual, murderous wars that feed it! You should remember these facts Daniel, when you call the Rethuglicans “plutocrats,” as they are ALL the same, in that respect!

47% of Congress Members Millionaires — a Status Shared by Only 1% of Americans (Nov. 2011 article):
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/11/47-of-congress-members-millionaires-a-status-shared-by-only-1-of-americans/

Congress Members Back Legislation that Could Benefit Themselves, Relatives:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress-members-back-legislation-that-could-benefit-themselves-relatives/2012/10/07/c2fa7d94-f3a9-11e1-a612-3cfc842a6d89_story.html
(There are currently “73 members of Congress who have sponsored or co-sponsored legislation in recent years that could benefit businesses or industries in which either they or their family members are involved or invested, according to a Washington Post analysis.”)

Obama, like Bush, does not, and can not, truly represent the people, either. He grew up in the top 10% earning bracket family, and also lived in the 1% with them. At no point growing up did he drop below those two standards of living:

Obama Blatant Lies About Poverty, Hardship:
http://www.stop-obama.org/?p=204

Show me a president in recent history that doesn’t represent wealthy private interests, and I’ll be SHOCKED! To support almost ANY of these rich, pompous mummies requires a religious leap of faith that I’m simply not willing to make! I have logic and reason as my guide, so I’ll never need to compromise or myself or double-think by justifying war criminality, crimes against peace, murder and other such horrors.

Brian J.Yeah, my real complaint is when Obama tries to appeal to both parties, and he ends up looking like a conservative Democrat. And his foreign policy, is no different from Bush. But Obama is doing things for the middle class, and is improving the economy. That’s why he won the election, because jobs are being created, and the economy is getting better. 🙂

Brian J.Obama did grow up poor, since his mother was on food stamps. Unlike most rich people, Obama’s mother had to work to make money, and Obama wasn’t born rich. And that’s the difference. It’s why I feel like I could relate to Obama, and it’s why the poor and working class voted for Obama, because he’s been fighting for them. It hasn’t been easy, and Obama is flawed. But he’s better than Bush, and that’s why the American people voted for him.

Brian J.And I’m not justifying Obama’s war crimes. It’s why I didn’t vote for him. But I forgive him, and I appreciate what he’s done for minorities, gay rights, and women’s rights. That means a lot to me. You don’t have to respect that, but that’s who I am.

Daniel F.Republicans accounted for 70% of all campaign spending and ended up with little to show for it. Obama is still president, and the democrats not only kept the Senate but increased their majority (admittedly with the unwitting help of idiot teabaggers). Repugs may have kept the house but only with a large number of safely gerrymandered disctricts. So there are two things to remember from this:
1) The winner of an election is the candidate who gets the most votes, NOT the candidate who can raise the most money, and
2) The American people aren’t quite as stupid as people like Mitt Romney and his corporate donors/puppetmasters believe them to be.

GenaireMost of these people you speak of, Daniel, don’t even realize that our country has more then two political parties. When you compare Obama to Romney, you have to always use the lesser of two evil argument, but I ask, why not try a third third party? It is obvious to anyone paying attention that you see very few changes when you elect either a democratic or republican puppet. Obama has spent more then all other presidents:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/06/14/president-obama-the-biggest-government-spender-in-world-history/

Explain to me how this is good for the American economy?

Brian J.: You see very few changes? Because of Obama, the economy is getting better, and we’re having more gay marriage.

Daniel F.The only way that third parties will ever really work in this country is if we were to somehow change our voting system. In a plurality system like we have, with three or more candidates in a race it becomes possible for the least-liked candidate to win simply by having the most fanatical supporters. Where a candidate that would lose to any other candidate in a two-way race can end up with the most votes because his opponents all ending up splitting the vote between them. This is why France uses runoffs and Australia uses instant runoff voting (which does have a flaw that I won’t get into just now).

Daniel F.Right now the only real way for “independent” candidates to have a real shot at being elected is to seek the nomination by one of the major parties. Ron Paul has been doing that for decades; being elected to Congress as a republican. Bernie Sanders has the support of the democrats.

Although part of the problem is that our primary system is kind of f*cked up, where one often has to appeal to the radical fringes of the party just to get the nomination.

GenaireWhat is up with you and this gay marriage thing, Brian? Gay marriage really doesn’t concern me, and no the economy isn’t doing better. We will have to pay for Obama’s heavy spending for generations.

GenaireGay marriage was legalized at the state not federal level.

GenaireDaniel as i pointed out before most of the voting public doesn’t even realize that our country has no idea this country ha more then two political systems. Since we have so many uninformed voters how can we sit back and say the best candidate was elected. We cannot sustain our level of military spending when we have so many potential tax payers all out if work. We can sustain out level of military spending when the entire country is at work that why our deficit is astronomically high and getting higher by the second. You continue to vote for the two party puppets while I’ll continue to inform others that both the two mainstream parties have been corrupted by corporate interests.

RaynDue to their foreign policies both Obama and Bush are classifiable war criminals, Brian, and should be prosecuted as such – no exceptions. Failure to do so continues to legitimize war crimes, and it sets an unacceptably dangerous legal standard that will have many more dire consequences for human rights – both now, and in the future!

As for your re-assertion of claims that Obama has helped the middle-class, or that the economy is improving, you are simply repeating yourself, ad nauseum, with no evidence to substantiate your claims. I have already pointed out time and time again, and have backed with HISTORICAL FACT, that the middle-class continues to suffer under Obama, and the economy is not actually improving. The only way for you to even form such erroneous conclusions is by comparing Obama to himself, which is NO REAL MEASURE at all, and absolutely UNSCIENTIFIC – much like your “lower unemployment” claims above, which I easily disproved.

And, now that the election is over, some *pretty obvious* “revelations” are finally being admitted by the Cowards-that-Be:

FED Report: 100% Chance of Recession (November 8, 2012):
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/fed-report-100-chance-of-recession_11072012

It’s just like the article says, “It’s no secret that the economy is still hurting. According to this report we are on the verge of another recession within the midst of a broader ‘depression.’ Contrarian analysts have already suggested this is the case, with many saying we’ve been in recession since at least summer.

Moreover, if you look at the real numbers behind the numbers, like the rate of real inflation, and bounce those against this purported economic growth you may be surprised to find that we never exited the recession!

Look at the chart below. You see that red line? That’s the government’s official GDP, a measure for economic growth. The government shows it in positive territory and its been heralded without question by the mainstream machine as the proof for an economic recovery.

Now look at the blue line. That’s the unofficial GDP as calculated by economist John Williams using algorithms that account for distortions in the way government calculates inflation.

A recession, as defined by most traditional measures of economics, is a period of two consecutive quarters with negative economic growth. That’s right — this whole time during which millions were losing jobs and homes, and as food stamp usage doubled, we have been in recession. That’s over four years now.

But did we really need a report from the Federal Reserve to confirm that for us?”

Daniel F.People are aware that there are parties out there other than the democratic and republican parties, they are just under the impression that voting for a third party is the same as wasting their vote. Which because of how our voting system works, it essentially is. Right now, the only thing that one can express with their vote is “I like candidate X” or “I like candidate Y” or “I don’t like any of them” by leaving that race blank. It is NOT possible for one to express “I like Gary Johnson, but I would prefer Obama over Romney”, or even something as simple as “I would approve of any candidate except for Mitt Romney”. So you can see why one is not going to want to “waste” their vote on a candidate who has no chance of winning only to see the major party candidate that they like less end up winning when they possibly could have done something to prevent that outcome. Though the democrats and republicans will fight tooth and nail against any change that would endanger their two-party duopoly.

RaynAs for your claim about Obama’s financial status in his youth, Brian, he did not “grow up poor,” nor did he grow up with his mother. “At the lowest points in his life, 90% of Americans did not know the opportunities Obama knew. At its peaks, 99% of American’s did not know the privileges little Barry was born into!” He is NOTHING like the rest of us. “From ages 0 to 2, Obama was growing up in a family of two inexperienced but economically secure, College Students. 2) From 2-6 he was with his rich grandparents. 3) From 6 – 10, with his well-off stepfather employed by Exxon Oil in Jakarta, living in elite conditions and neighborhoods designated for foreigners. 4) From age 10 to College Days, Obama lives the Tropical Life with two well off grandparents. One rich, the other idle. 5) The grandparents who raised Obama: On Obama’s mother’s side, the income was upper upper upper. Since it was they, not Ann, that sponsored most of Obama’s education right through Occidental College, it is their income, and not the perennially absent-student mother, that impacted Obama’s status. It was Stanley Armour Dunham and Madelyn Dunham that made sure since the day of his birth that Barry wouldn’t ever know want, poverty, or hardship.” And, let us not forget that Madelyn Dunham became one of the first female vice presidents of the Bank of Hawaii in Honolulu, so we’re talking about Big Oil and Big Bank money bankrolling this future president’s life!

Obama Blatant Lies About Poverty, Hardship:
http://www.stop-obama.org/?p=204

Obama even had a NANNY raising him and his younger sister when he lived in Indonesia with his Exxon-employed step-father! Did you or I grow up with a nanny? NO. And, I honestly don’t know of even a SINGLE friend, family member or acquaintance of mine who can make such a claim! Meanwhile, his mother only collected food stamps VERY BRIEFLY, when Obama was very young – and this is according to him. Yet, even the following New York Times dispels the myth that Obama grew up poor, revealing how his mother was very politically active, and moved to a number of exotic locations throughout her life, and the lavish lifestyle:

Obama’s Young Mother, Abroad:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/magazine/mag-24Obama-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Any poor or middle-class person who believes that they can relate to Obama based on his upbringing got DUPED!

____________________________________________________

Obama hasn’t been “fighting for” the middle class, or the working class. The middle class continues to be eviscerated, and the economy continues to collapse, as I have already proven with actual fact. Meanwhile, as I already pointd out above, financial fraud has SKYROCKETED under Obama, and he has done NOTHING about it! Yet, he has found the time to prosecute more WHISTLE-BLOWERS than all previous presidents combined, instead! This is a SLAP IN THE FACE to the American people, and a COMPLETE BETRAYAL of the citizenry to CORPORATE INTERESTS:

Obama’s War on Whistle-Blowers [translation: attack on Press and First Amendment Speech] (May 2011 article):
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2011/05/obamas-war-whistle-blowers/38106/
(“In President Obama’s 26 months in office, civilian and military prosecutors have charged five people in cases involving leaking information, more than all previous presidents combined,” reports the Times.)
____________________________________________________

Criminal Prosecutions for Financial Institution Fraud Continue to Fall Even Lower Under Obama (November 2011 article):
http://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/267/
____________________________________________________

Yet, some of the BIGGEST financial scandals in HISTORY are happening under Obama’s term as president, starting with the Foreclosure Scandal that broke around the Fall of 2010:

The Mortgage Fraud Scandal Is The Biggest Real Estate Scandal In Human History (October 2010 article):
http://www.businessinsider.com/mortgage-fraud-scandal-2010-10

Why the Foreclosure Fraud Mess Could Last for Years (October 2010 article):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39562824/ns/business-real_estate/

Fraudulant ‘Robo-signing’ of Mortgages Still a Problem (July 2011 article):
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-20080533.html

FBI Estimates 80% of Mortgage Fraud Involved Industry Insiders (December 2011 article):
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/12/fbi-estimates-80-of-mortgage-fraud-involved-industry-insiders/

Wells Fargo Insiders Detail Foreclosure Fraud Practices: ‘It’s Exactly Like An Assembly Line’ (April 2012 article):
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/20/468442/wells-fargo-insider/

Fannie Mae Ranks Banks in ‘Robo-Signing’ Settlement as Top Servicers, No Charges Filed Against Bankers (August 2012):
http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2012/08/23/fannie-mae-ranks-banks-in-robo-signing-settlement-as-top-servi/
(Fannie Mae gave three-star ratings to CitiMortgage, JPMorgan Chase, Ally Bank and Wells Fargo — four of the five largest U.S. mortgage servicers, which were involved in the $25 billion “robo-signing” settlement — for their service performance in the first half of 2012)
____________________________________________________

Then, there’s the LIBOR Interest Rate Fixing Scandal:

LIBOR Scandal Set to Rock U.S. as Experts Warn it Could Be ‘the Biggest Consumer Fraud in History’:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2172377/LIBOR-scandal-rocks-US-experts-warn-biggest-consumer-fraud-history.html

LIBOR Scandal: Possibly the Biggest Financial Scandal in History (July 2012 article):
http://www.moneytalksnews.com/2012/07/23/libor-scandal-of-the-century/

$800 Trillion in Securities and Loans are Linked to the LIBOR (July 2012 article):
http://capitalfinanceint.com/news/banking/2012/07/barclays-libor-rate-fixing-leads-to-resignations/

LIBOR Manipulating Banksters Get a Slap on the Wrist (June 2012):
http://moneymorning.com/2012/06/29/libor-manipulating-banksters-get-a-slap-on-the-wrist/

RaynWhen I spoke of those justifying war crimes, I was actually speaking about the American public in general, Brian. However, you have been justifying Obama’s war crimes, too, by painting them out as REASONABLE actions in the name of the “War on Terrorism,” so it behooves me to understand how you are able to claim otherwise. Two weeks ago, you stated the following five claims here (http://acidrayn.com/2012/10/24/debate-over-presidential-debates/):

1. “It’s survival of the fittest. These terrorists have it coming. Their civilians have it coming, it’s called collateral damage.”

2. “Yeah, it’s murder, and we should of been prosecuted as war criminals. But it’s collateral damage, and it happens. And these terrorists, had it coming. So did the innocent civilians.”

3. “There is no excuse for collateral damage. But it’s the way it is. War is evil, but it’s also a necessary evil.”

4. “There’s no excuse for collateral damage, but it’s still collateral damage. And a lot of these terrorists, are terrorists for a reason. But this is survival of the fittest. We have to stop them, before they attempt to stop us.”

5. “I think Obama does support human rights, he just doesn’t support terrorists. And those civilians are just collateral damage. You say that it’s murder, as if it’s wrong. I can say that it’s wrong, but what if it’s being done for a greater good?”

Meanwhile, during this very exchange, read above to note that you stated the following:

“Obama kills for an actual reason, even though it’s wrong. Bush killed for no reason.” (Note your use of the word REASON)

There are a number of definitions for justify, but here is the VERY FIRST:

Justify: (v): 1a: to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justify
(take note of the “OR,” which is present twice, as this will)

So, there’s no doubt about it. You can call Obama’s war crimes “wrong” all you like; your Doublethink may even help to reduce cognitive dissonance (for now), but so long as you find them reasonable, you do, in fact, justify them! It’s like I told you before, though: I’m not very well-versed in Newspeak, so I never know what you’re talking about when you present such ideas. But, I will once again ask the obvious question: have you ever read the book, “1984”?

You stated, “I forgive [Obama for war crimes], and I appreciate what he’s done for minorities, gay rights, and women’s rights. That means a lot to me. You don’t have to respect that, but that’s who I am.” This simply represents more doublethink. How can you openly acknowledge rights for select groups of humanity, while actively denying them to others – especially in light of the fact that the group you deny also CONTAINS these WOMEN, HOMOSEXUALS, and “MINORITIES” (by American standards) you purport to support? That is beyond illogical. That’s hypocrisy! Forgive ME, then, if I choose to acknowledge and respect ALL HUMAN RIGHTS for ALL HUMAN BEINGS! You don’t have to respect that, but that’s WHO THE HUMAN RACE is to ME! Without acknowledging the rights of everyone else, my own are worthless, as they are not based in solid ground, and so, WILL NOT stand the test of time! History is CLEAR on this point!

Rayn: I don’t know where you’re getting your 70% figure from,Daniel, but I’d sure like to see them! According to all of the stats I’ve been following, the Democratic party raised more, and also spent more money than the Republican party during this 2012 Presidential election cycle:

Candidate Comparison – 2012 Presidential Candidates:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/head2head.php?cycle=2012

And, this is only part of the picture. The recent Supreme Court decision to declare money a form of free speech has led to an explosion in corporate sponsorship within the presidential elections:
http://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/

These figures try to account for some of the Super PACs, though not all, and still shows Obama raising and spending more than Romney during this election cycle.

The 2012 Money Race: Compare the Candidates:
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/campaign-finance

How Much Are Super PACs Spending?
http://projects.wsj.com/super-pacs/

Elections, Democracy: Meet Your Corporate Sponsors
http://www.odwyerpr.com/blog/index.php?%2Farchives%2F5371-Elections%2C-democracy-meet-your-corporate-sponsors.html

But, instead of bringing up the non-issue of which corporate puppet spent more on their campaign, why not bring up the bipartisan issue of JUST HOW MUCH MONEY Obama AND Romney received from their corporations sponsors during this election cycle!? For the majority of Americans, THIS is one of the biggest problems with politics, along with media bias!

47% Say Media Bias Bigger Problem Than Campaign Contributions, 42% Disagree – Voters are More Divided About Whether Media Bias or Big Campaign Contributions is the Biggest Problem in Politics:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/most_recent_videos/2012_08/47_say_media_bias_bigger_problem_than_campaign_contributions_42_disagree

You seem to repeatedly imply that the Repuglicans have somehow cornered the market on plutocratic oligarchy. I would suggest that you remove the rosy glasses you wear when viewing Democrats, and take a look at BOTH parties using the SAME measure! You will soon find yourself dealing with the same exact repulsive deeds being committed on both ends of the two-party fraud! I did this very thing myself back in 2000, as I’m a recovering Democrat, and have been clean for twelve years! 🙂 Make no mistake, though: I am not a Republican, either! 🙂

Daniel F.At the end of the day, people in power are going to appease those who helped them obtain power and determine whether or not they remain in power. Unfortunately our political system has been poisoned by all that corporate money; by people with billions of dollars who can bury any candidate that they view as a threat to their interests under an avalanche of attack ads and outright lies. But in the end, the plutocrats’ designated stooges still need to actually be voted in by the people. So ultimately how much of an effecr it ends up having depends on how well-informed the electorate is. As long as people remain ignorant and stupid, politicians will continue to be able to get away with pandering to billionaire CEO’s and banksters for campaign donations. If instead you have a smart and well-informed electorate, then politicians will need to actually answer to the people or risk losing their jobs.

By choosing to remove yourself from the political process, politicians have no incentive to care one bit about you, as it would not have any effect on whether they remain office. And although one individual vote may not have much of an effect by itself, millions of them add up fairly quick.

Brian J.I’m a big supporter of gay rights, and Obama has done great things for the gay community, and women’s rights. Obama has gotten many things right, and I don’t have that much to complain about. But I do complain about his war crimes, and the war on drugs. Those are his biggest black eyes. At least in my opinion.

Brian J.: Rayn, their only war crimes, when you lose. Lol!

Brian J.: Rayn, you’re claiming that the middle-class has suffered. But those facts that you presented, came from the economic crash under Bush, which was in 2008. Statistically speaking, the middle-class has been improving under Obama, and so has the economy. Obama wouldn’t of been re-elected, if the economy had gotten worse. It got better, and that’s why Obama won again.

Rayn: I’d say that Obama’s biggest brown eye is his mouth! 🙂

Brian J.I’m not justifying Obama’s war crimes. I’m just saying that he’s done other great things for minorities, gay people, and for the economy. The war crimes are wrong, but Obama has been great in other areas. Bush was just bad in all areas.

Brian J.Jimmy Carter was a damn good president. Better than Obama in some cases. He just couldn’t fix a bad economy.

Brian J.Obama is legalizing gay marriage. Yeah, I know he’s not actually doing it, but his support, does help. And even though he’s still against legalizing pot, it’s getting legal. Hopefully, Obama will start using his head, and completely legalize pot. Then the economy will start to get better.

Brian J.: And, Rayn, you call me a hypocrite. I didn’t even vote for Obama. I voted libertarian.

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