Justify the State, or Defend Liberty?

The following debate originally took place upon my Facebook wall, after I posted artwork being shared by the page, “Americans Against the Republican and Democratic Parties”…

Rayn:

"If taxation without consent is not robbery, then any band of robbers have only to declare themselves a government, and all of their robberies are legalized." - Lysander Spooner

“If taxation without consent is not robbery, then any band of robbers have only to declare themselves a government, and all of their robberies are legalized.” – Lysander Spooner

Daniel F.: Declaring themselves a “government” means absolutely nothing. If there someone out there powerful enough to bring the robbers to justice then declaring themselves a “government” isn’t going to help them weasel out of what’s coming to them; if there isn’t then they’re getting away with it whether they try to pass themselves off as a “government” or not.

The state does not have power because it is a state; it is a state because it has power to begin with.

Rayn: Sure, it doesn’t… LOLZ!

Cops Now Take More Than Robbers:
http://reason.com/archives/2015/11/27/cops-now-take-more-than-robbers

RaynBut, without government, who would commit theft, under color of law?

"An inconvenient truth. In 2014, all of the criminals in the U.S. stole a total of $3.9 billion from citizens... and police stole $4.5 billion from citizens through civil asset forfeiture. $600 million more than all the criminals combined." (artwork originally located here, on the Facebook page, "I Fucking Hate Government")

“An inconvenient truth. In 2014, all of the criminals in the U.S. stole a total of $3.9 billion from citizens…
and police stole $4.5 billion from citizens through civil asset forfeiture. $600 million more than all the criminals combined.”
(Artwork originally located here, upon the Facebook page, “I Fucking Hate Government“)

Daniel F.:

2016-04-02 - Justify the State, or Defend Liberty (3)

“Your property now belongs to Negan.”

Daniel F.What happens, of course, when all order completely breaks down. The nastiest son-of-a-bitch around ends up taking over and enforces his rule through intimidation and force.

The problem isn’t the concept of “government” – it’s that our current government has become utterly corrupt, and that we didn’t collectively didn’t yank our consent away from them the moment they stopped representing the people. So we end up with thugs like either the thugs in the above picture, or militarized police forces, whose “authority” is based entirely on intimidation and violence.

And we got to where we are because of too many people being indifferent to politics, and who keep electing the same stooges into office over and over again even while they continue to act in the interest of their big money donors while screwing the rest of us, and of course finding ways to silence dissent, to keep people from realizing that the emperor has no clothes, so to speak, and continue to manipulate public perception so that the people don’t all realize how the politicians and their big money donors have been fucking us over all this time. If the people suddenly woke up and realized what was going on then over 90% of all elected officials in this country – at all levels – would be flushed out of office and replaced with actual people (and those new people who let their new power go to their head would be flushed out in the next election as well).

Rayn: Wait a minute… Wow. Are you actually claiming that “freedom is slavery”? LOLZ!

“It seems strange that any thinking human being would not be naturally open and receptive to the idea that he owns himself and should be in charge of his own life, unhindered by any human ‘authority.’ However, the average person who hears such a message often lashes out at the messenger, insists that actual freedom, a world without masters and subjects, would mean chaos and destruction, and then vehemently advocates the continued enslavement of all of mankind, including himself.” – Larken Rose

“It seems strange that any thinking human being would not be naturally open and receptive to the idea that he owns himself and should be in charge of his own life, unhindered by any human ‘authority.’ However, the average person who hears such a message often lashes out at the messenger, insists that actual freedom, a world without masters and subjects, would mean chaos and destruction, and then vehemently advocates the continued enslavement of all of mankind, including himself.” – Larken Rose (artwork originally located here, on the Facebook page, "Anarchy, Natural Law, Truth and Freedom.")

“It seems strange that any thinking human being would not be naturally open and receptive to the idea that he owns himself and should be in charge of his own life, unhindered by any human ‘authority.’ However, the average person who hears such a message often lashes out at the messenger, insists that actual freedom, a world without masters and subjects, would mean chaos and destruction, and then vehemently advocates the continued enslavement of all of mankind, including himself.” – Larken Rose
(Artwork originally located here, upon the Facebook page, “Anarchy, Natural Law, Truth and Freedom“)

Rayn: “If anarchy is chaos, WTF is this?”

"If anarchy is chaos, WTF is this?" (artwork originally located here, on the Facebook page, "The Abolitionist Movement")

“If anarchy is chaos, WTF is this?”
(Artwork originally located here, upon the Facebook page, “The Abolitionist Movement“)

Rayn: Either way, the problem absolutely IS government. And, it’s time that we stop negotiating with these TERRORISTS! Keep voting for masters to rule over you, and you’ll always be a SLAVE!

The centralized governments of the world empower the same criminals they claim to protect their citizens from. These predators, in turn, legalize their criminality, while criminalizing our humanity. And, apparently, as we attempt to destroy this parasitic relationship using the poison of TYRANNY, it only adapts to the new environments we create for it, while we weaken ourselves for an even worse infection! Now is the time for us to use the elixir of true FREEDOM to heal and rid ourselves of this Beast system! Let the way we live actually reflect reality, with EVERY Individual speaking in their own unique voice! Embrace the EQUALITY and JUSTICE of Individual Sovereignty, which logically, peacefully demands our adherence to the The Non-Aggression Principle, and opens the door to Voluntaryism!

“If statists say we need government to control bad people… what about the bad people who join government to control others?”

“If statists say we need government to control bad people… what about the bad people who join government to control others?” (artwork originally located here, on the Facebook page, “Voluntaryism”)

“If statists say we need government to control bad people… what about the bad people who join government to control others?”
(Artwork originally located here, upon the Facebook page, “Voluntaryism”)

Rayn: Why on Earth would you willing consent to a government made up of the SAME EXACT people you seem to believe are so very criminal to the core, as though your cooperation would somehow legally shield you from such criminality? Wouldn’t you simply be providing the very criminals you are so worried about with the LAWFUL MEANS to rob, assault and murder you, with absolutely NO REAL PROTECTION against their crimes, too, since you basically handed them a full LEGAL MONOPOLY on violence, and the execution of societal “justice’?

“Government: the brilliant idea that we should stop lunatics from lying, murdering, and stealing from us by hiring lunatics to lie, murder and steal from us.”

“Government: the brilliant idea that we should stop lunatics from lying, murdering, and stealing from us by hiring lunatics to lie, murder and steal from us.” (artwork originally located here, on the Facebook page, “LibertyManiacs.com”)

“Government: the brilliant idea that we should stop lunatics from lying, murdering, and stealing from us by hiring lunatics to lie, murder and steal from us.”
(Artwork originally located here, upon the Facebook page, “LibertyManiacs.com”)

Rayn: At least the “nastiest son-of-a-bitch around” has no legal claim of “authority” over the lives of his victims (whether it be thorugh the “consent of the governed,” “the divine right of kings,” or any other such intellectually dishonest claim). In reality, the “nastiest son-of-a-bitch around” is an obvious CRIMINAL, and provides no attempts to legitimizing his thefts, assaults, rapes and murders. And, for this reason, his criminal career will NEVER be as successful as that of GOVERNMENT! (And, he certainly won’t receive a “Nobel Peace Prize” for his behavior… because WAR IS NOT PEACE)!

“Governments murdered 262,000,000 disarmed civilians in the 20th century. Anti-Statism is a life saver.”

“Governments murdered 262,000,000 disarmed civilians in the 20th century. Anti-Statism is a life saver.” (artwork originally located here, on the Facebook page, “Bastiat Institute“)

“Governments murdered 262,000,000 disarmed civilians in the 20th century. Anti-Statism is a life saver.”
(Artwork originally located here, upon the Facebook page, “Bastiat Institute“)

Rayn: “A thief is more moral than a Congressman; when a thief steals your money, he doesn’t demand that you thank him.”

"A thief is more moral than a Congressman; when a thief steals your money, he doesn't demand that you thank him."

“A thief is more moral than a Congressman; when a thief steals your money, he doesn’t demand that you thank him.” – Walter E. Williams

Rayn: Obama understands something most Americans don’t: what sets the State apart is its legal monopoly on violence!

A Nation State IS a Monopoly on Violence:

Daniel F.: So in other words you’re saying that if someone had a gun to your head, was demanding something of you (your property, your labor, your body, whatever) and will kill you if you refuse, and that nothing is going to happen to him (whether he takes what he wants and lets you go, or blows your brains out) because there is no one around who is able or willing to do anything (either to intervene to stop him, or after the fact to punish him) that it would be somehow acceptable so long as he isn’t “government”? What difference does it make as to whether or not he attempts to “legitimize” his actions if everyone else (who isn’t involved in helping him to enforce his “rule”) is too afraid to stand up to him?

Daniel F.: Possessing a monopoly on violence is pretty much what defines a state. Declaring oneself a state doesn’t make it so; without the means to back it up, it is nothing. “Legal” is entirely a matter of perception here.

Governments have been overthrown before. Revolutions can occur when a government’s subjects no longer consider it to be “legitimate”. Revolutions are not always successful (and even when they are you usually end up with something just as bad in its place.)

And then there are those instances where a government lacks the power to effectively rule over what is nominally its own territory – what is known as a “failed state”. In that case you generally end up with competing warlords and criminal organizations controlling large swaths of territory, where they can effectively do anything they want and that the “legitimate” government is unable to do anything about it. (And even if you do have a settlement somewhere, where everyone more or less plays an equal part in running the place, what happens when some other group with far more firepower comes across them and decides that they’re going to take over?)

As for your question, “what difference does it make”? It’s a matter of SHEER NUMBERS. The 262,000,000 victims murdered by their own governments speaks volumes. Criminals, operating outside of “government,” have NEVER come close to the body-count of “legitimized” authority – not in the entire history of humanity.

Daniel F.: It doesn’t really matter if one “consents.” The words “I do not consent” have never stopped a jackboot from going through someone’s door – or a bullet from going through someone’s skull.

Daniel F.: Like nature, politics abhors a vacuum. Even if you were to eliminate government, eliminate the state, you CAN’T eliminate power itself. So the only remaining solution is to make sure that nobody is allowed to have power over anyone else without accountability for their actions. That there is something in place so that the moment that one begins to abuse whatever power is invested in them for their own advancement at the expense of their community (or country) that it is quickly stripped away from them, and they are no longer allowed to wield such power in the future.

Rayn: Nope. That’s not even REMOTELY close to what I’m saying, and I can only imagine what sort of fallacious non sequitur “logic” would cause you to presume something so laughable. Sorry, but that’s not the only plausible alternative to rejecting the false “authority” of government… In reality, a criminal is a criminal, and I’m against them all! However, some of them, like the ones running our government, just happen to be more dangerous – mostly because of their arrogant, unchallenged legal monopoly on violence and on justice, and also, the fact that so many, like yourself, support their criminality as “necessity,” under the faulty logic that “freedom is slavery.” Therefore, a closer approximation of my view would be as follows: if a “government” agent put a gun to my head, and demanded my money, then I’d be hunted down like a dog if I justifiably put a bullet in his or her face to defend myself. And I’d be sought after by not only more agents of “government,” but even supporters of the criminal enterprise, like yourself, while ironically, being forced for my entire life to pay for these criminal “services” – in the form of “taxes.” Meanwhile, if I defended myself against a common criminal, in the same exact situation, my actions would be considered noble, and I’d be a hero to most, and at no point in life, beforehand, would I have been forced to directly shell out cash for his or her “services”.

RaynCleopatra – “That is a Slave’s Answer!”:

In reality, “that is a slave’s answer.” Consent, itself, is the difference between sex and rape, between payment and robbery, and generally between yes and no. You can try all you might to defend your beloved criminal government, but even they have to claim the “consent of the governed” to get away with all that they have, so far.

And, lest we forget, consent is much more than just words! It’s the sum of thoughts, words AND ACTIONS!

As for your claim that “it doesn’t matter,” it is patently false, historically!

For just a quick example, the single-most important factor that ended the Apartheid State in South Africa was a matter of WITHDRAWING CONSENT through REFUSAL TO VOTE!

Why You Got to Stop Voting:
http://fubarandgrill.org/node/1172

Individuals shouldn’t simply cower in the face of tyranny, so long as the tyranny has more “power,” while weakly waiting for their own numbers to rise, or for the tide to miraculously turn. That is pathologically pathetic, and under such a weak-minded ideology, chattel slavery would still be in full government-instituted swing, even now!

Daniel: South Africa’s apartheid state ended. But last I checked, there is still _a_ government there. And it only ended without violence because the apartheid regime realized that they would not be able to keep power even with force. As it is they were already considered a pariah by much of the world, and after that “election” sent a clear message that a vast majority of the people of South Africa no longer considered their government to be legitimate not even the U.S. could continue to prop them up. With all their support gone they had no choice to capitulate.

Rayn: Governments have no legitimate right to “rule over what is nominally [their] own territory.” That is absolutely repugnant, and beyond vulgar. Your acceptance of such a criminal and slave-based situation is not only sad, and indicative of how successful years of government propaganda has been in polluting your mind against freedom, and your fellow innocent and peaceful human beings, but also completely discredits you. The planet isn’t a plantation, nor a prison, nor a tax-farm. As human beings, we all have a right to Self-Ownership, and to live in the peace of freedom. Liberty is only slavery to those who buy into the weak-willed religion of the “original sin/pre-crime” you continue to espouse. Grovel all you want before the cult of Godvernment, but I will never bend my knee – regardless of your efforts to horizontally enforce me into silence with your ill logic. I’d rather live on my feet than die on my knees! Enjoy your slavery!

As I’ve said many times during my debates with Statists:

“With all of this in mind, also realize that reality does not tend to agree with your highly cynical notion that humanity needs to be ruled over by morally-bankrupt criminal scum. And, the Statists currently denying my natural right to live, to own myself, and to peacefully co-exist are simply those who wish to violate them, by way of robbery, slavery and/or murder – either directly, or through violent, coercive proxy (church, state, etc). This is typically done while espousing the usual brand of illogical superstition, replete with “original sin/presumed guilt/pre-crime/chaos” myth about the inherent “evil/cruelty/disorder” of humanity. Of course, I reject such cult-like nonsense, as it is absolutely illegitimate. Not only have I personally met more kind and caring souls than I can count, I also recognize every human being as a UNIQUE, SOVEREIGN INDIVIDUAL – to be judged ONLY by the merits of their OWN character! As far as I’m concerned, assigning humanity with labels fit for criminals is merely an excuse for the corrupt and polluted souls among us to collectively oppress and punish us all for crimes we haven’t even committed, in an effort to catch a boogie man that lives no further than the nearest MIRROR! Besides, biology, itself, does NOT support the “freedom is slavery” double-think mentality of such control-freaks, no matter how many clever excuses they come up with in order to justify their lust to harm and enslave others:

Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (Aug. 2009):
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/forget-survival-of-the-fittest/

Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And Social Animals, Not Predators (Feb. 2006):
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/38011.php

The Compassionate Species (July 2012):
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_compassionate_species

Young Children Are Intrinsically Motivated to See Others Helped (August 2011):
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/23/9/967

We’re In This Together: A Pathbreaking Investigation into the Evolution of Cooperative Behavior (Nov. 2012):
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121119094629.htm

Humans Naturally Cooperative, Altruistic, Social (Sept. 2011):
http://phys.org/news/2011-09-humans-naturally-cooperative-altruistic-social.html

A Cooperative Species: Human Reciprocity and Its Evolution (Jan. 2011):
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9474.html

Instinctively, People Are Generous (Sept. 2012):
http://news.discovery.com/human/human-instinct-generous-120919.html

(archived copy of above link located here: http://web.archive.org/web/20121004113714/http://news.discovery.com/human/human-instinct-generous-120919.html)

Emory Brain Imaging Studies Reveal Biological Basis For Human Cooperation (July 2002):
(Brain intrinsically rewards reciprocal altruism over self-interest)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/07/020718075131.htm
(*all it takes is free-will initiation of altruism by only one party in most cases!)

Thinking About Giving, Not Receiving, Motivates People to Help Others (Aug. 2012):
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/thinking-about-giving-not-receiving-motivates-people-to-help-others.html

The idea that human beings are inherently weak cattle and incapable of running their own lives without the use of coercion is just a MYTH propagated by rotten-souled tyrants who desire to manufacture public consent to their population control schemes. And, the more such stories are repeated as though fact, the more individuals believe it, and act accordingly, denying their own humanity under the notion that others are doing the same – the blind leading the blind, in a most pathetic display of conformism.”

Daniel F.: What would happen to you – assuming that you were actually successful in killing said criminal/aggressor and didn’t just get killed yourself would depend on a number of factors – does the criminal have friends or associates who are going to go after you? Was this person even acting on his own, or under the “authority” of some other agent? Is there someone out there who would protect you against this organization when they go to exact retribution? Or would everyone else be too afraid to cross them?

Case in point – mafia protection rackets. In areas where they operate, they’ll approach local business owners and “offer” their services – for a price, of course. Unlike the example above they won’t issue any overt threats of violence, but rather subtly imply that this is not an offer you can refuse.

Daniel F.: In a way, it’s sort of like the Prisoners’ Dilemma problem. The prisoners working together (by refusing to cooperate with the authorities) can secure the optimal outcome for themselves; but in refusing to cooperate each is sticking his neck out as if the other chickens out and cooperates then the one who didn’t cooperate suffers the worst possible outcome. Much work has been done in the field of game theory on this problem alone.

(On a similar note I wouldn’t be surprised that everyone in Stalin’s inner circle absolutely despised him and thought he was completely off his rocker, yet believed that everyone else in his inner circle was fanatically loyal to him, and that they’d end up being skinned alive or suffer some other horrific fate if they acted or even spoke against him.)

Rayn: That certainly is an ironically illogical example you pose with your mafia mention. In case you didn’t realize, the Mafia rose to power in America due to the government’s illegitimate Prohibition campaigns against alcohol and drugs. You see, government empowers criminals because it IS criminal. And, government keeps their grip on “power” by making sure that criminals and terrorists are threatening the population, regularly – even, if they have to create them, directly!

How Prohibition Backfired and Gave America an Era of Gangsters and Speakeasies:
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2012/aug/26/lawless-prohibition-gangsters-speakeasies

U.S. Legalization of Marijuana Has Hit Mexican Cartels’ Cross-Border Trade:
http://time.com/3801889/us-legalization-marijuana-trade/

Truth In Media: American Origin Of ISIS:
http://www.activistpost.com/2015/02/truth-in-media-origin-of-isis.html

US-Armed, Trained & Funded Mujahideen Becomes Maktab Al-Khidamat (MAK), Al Qaeda, Taliban, and Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) Terrorist Groups:
http://acidrayn.com/2011/03/31/us-armed-trained-funded-mujahideen-becomes-maktab-al-khidamat-mak-al-qaeda-taliban-and-libyan-islamic-fighting-group-lifg-terrorist-groups/

Jordan K.: Well Rayn +1 , Daniel 0

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