Weighing in On the Abortion Debate, and Establishing the More Sexually-Responsible Order of Being “Pro-Choice”

The following debate originally took place upon the Facebook wall of an ex-acquaintance…

2016 Presidential Candidate, Ben Carson

2016 Presidential Candidate, Ben Carson

Anke M.: Ben Carson Gives Himself Permission to Use Fetal Tissue, NO ONE ELSE:
http://gawker.com/ben-carson-gives-himself-permission-to-use-fetal-tissue-1723902158

Jerry C.: Can he spell hypocrisy?

Genaire: I think their is a big difference in promoting the abortion of babies and then financially capitalizing on that abortion over using tissue you have in your lab to then help people.

In other words he’s attempting to save the life not promoting it’s death then financially gaining off that death.

Angie M.: I guess you are not aware that no fetal tissue was being sold, and these are nonprofits that do not make a profit no matter how much money they bring in. How absurd to attempt to distinguish some nonexistent difference between fetal tissue donations and getting compensated for the cost of shipping them to what Ben Carson did.

Furthermore, it makes no sense whatsoever to allow the fetal tissue to go unused when it can save lives. Of course, some only care about the lives of undeveloped fetuses and don’t give a rat’s ass about them once they are born.

I also find your claim of “promoting abortion” to be nonsensical, as it is only 3% of what Planned Parenthood does. If you’re going to accuse them of “promoting abortion”, you are also going to have to acknowledge that they are doing a terrible job of it. LMAO

Angie M.: Of course, one would have to be well informed enough to know that these videos have been discredited and shown to be complete hoaxes. They were edited in such a way to confuse the mentally lazy into believing that fetal tissue was being “sold”. Anyone with any intelligence would know better.

Genaire: That wasn’t my point I agree that the fetal tissue should be used. Don’t then use the fact that he used the fetal tissue and has not promoted the death of any babies as a reason to smere his campaign. Let’s focus on email deleting Hillary.

Angie M.: Oh yes, we must definitely vilify Hillary for not wanting her personal family emails read by the entire world. LMAO

Angie M.: By the way, “Promoting death” would require that something is alive. There is no certificate of live birth until a fetus is born, at which point it becomes a baby. This is why we do not issue death certificates when there is a miscarriage, because it is not a viable human being or person. It is childish hyperbole to attempt to make this about “murder” or “killing”. It is about the woman owning her own body and not being denigrated down to the status of being nothing more than a human incubator. No one promotes abortion. A woman decides she wants it and it is her right to her own body. Bodily autonomy is necessary in a free world, otherwise you can have no freedom because someone else owns your body.

An unborn fetus does not own the body of the woman in which resides, and as much as I don’t like the idea of abortion, I am emotionally mature and self disciplined enough not to engage in childish hyperbolic semantics games in order to try to make it more than what it is.

Genaire: Yes if that was the issue. The issue being her using her private server to email sensitive government data. Completely illegal. If you or I (especially I) would have done this we would be under the jail right now. Ask manning he’ll tell you.

Genaire: It’s obviously alive you aren’t harvesting dead organs. I think that would be against the point.

Genaire: Nice try though.

Genaire: LOL

Angie M.: Apparently you do not have the education to understand the difference between rudimentary life and meaningful life.

Angie M.: A clump of cancer cells is alive, that is how it is able to grow. That does not make it meaningful life, nor does it mean we are committing murder when we remove it.

Genaire: Life is life call me as stupid as you like still doesn’t make wrong right.

Genaire: Ok put those cancer cells in yourself and leave the fetuses alone.

Genaire: We have done this before and like before I can go back and forth with you as long as you like.

Angie M.: If you insist on an overly simplistic definition of “life”, then murder is committed every time a man wanks himself off. Sperm are “alive”. There is a difference between being alive and being a person. It has already been established that personhood does not exist until birth.

Genaire: Sperm don’t breath. Sperm don’t have viable organs. Sperm don’t have functional brains.

Angie M.: No thanks, I don’t want cancer cells or a fetus in me. I’m also not childish and self-centered enough to think that I have the right to tell others what to do with their bodies. You clearly don’t care about babies, you only care about winning your non-logical argument about why other people should be forced to give birth to them against their wishes.

Angie M.: Fetuses don’t breathe, either. It’s not possible for them to do so.

Angie M.: Your statements show you to be extremely uneducated and overly emotional. You are incapable of rational discourse or intelligent debate. You just keep regurgitating talking points that you don’t even understand very well yourself.

Angie M.: In the grown-up world, we value meaningful, established life over rudimentary, undeveloped life. It doesn’t mean we can’t place a value on both, but we must give deference to that of the developed person with her own body which functions independently of a host body in order to survive.

Genaire: Non logical. Yes this argument is non logical. You want to harvest these quasi living organs yet if they weren’t living you couldn’t implant them now could you?. But in the socialist model of life one always wants what someone else has and is willing to deny one there very life to take it. You mam disgust me.

Genaire: Abortions are done at 13 weeks. At 13 weeks SECOND TRIMESTER: BABY SUCKS, SWALLOWS, BLINKS AND DREAMS
During the second trimester, steady contractions of baby’s diaphragm and chest muscles occur (think of them as practice breathing movements). Baby’s first sucking and swallowing impulses kick in around 16 weeks.

Angie M.: Irrational, hysterical, overly emotional people who do not understand the science behind rudimentary life versus meaningful autonomous life disgust me.

The one who wants to take something from someone that doesn’t belong to them is the person who wants to force a woman to be nothing more than a human incubator and give up her body for something that is dependent on it in a parasite-host relationship.

“Practicing” breathing movements is not breathing, by the way.

GenaireIn the end, Angie, everyone gets exactly what they deserve. I wish you luck with what ever that is for you.

Angie M.: Thanks for the bitchy, passive aggressive, childish goodbye! LOL

Genaire: Not a goodbye. Just see no need to continue to argue with someone who seeks to question my intelligence. I wish you luck with all that life dishes out to you.

Genaire: Our debate has seemed to move towards ones morality. I don’t feel the need to debate you on that topic.

Anke M.I am still extremely happy with the fact that I aborted a zygot at 16 weeks, I think , it’s around 48 years ago , so who knows exactly. Mine was illegal, great doctor, very expensive, worked out great! Thank God for Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood! Abortion being the law of the land if one so needs or desires, and Planned Parenthood for all the great work they do got women’s health, and their less than 1% of work on abortion services! The fetal tissue research has given us the Polio Vaccine, for one. The research today is beneficial to Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, etc.
So, Genaire, cut the crap educate yourself before condemning anyone! Oh, the research is also helping people with Autism!

Genaire: At 16 weeks the baby is capable of dreaming dreaming denotes thought. I have looked this up. So I have educated myself Anke. Again when two people have differing opinions I never understand the need to question intelligence.

Again I’m not against abortion late term abortion is what it is and it just so happens to be murder when the fetus is capable of dreaming. People deserve what they deserve I’ve condemned no one.

Anke M.: Civilized Western European countries consider killing a living , breathing, human outside of the Mothers’body, capable of life and breathing on its own murder. Just like when we unhook people that are artificially being kept alive , is not murder!
Unless you don’t believe in that either?

Genaire: Some in those societies consider it murder not all. Many as you know do not.

Anke M.: We don’t consider it murder Genaire, I don’t! If the necessity arises , it’s just getting rid of say an appendix that serves no function! Now ask me about a born human, capable of breathing on their own, if it needs anything I will get it for that little person, I will and have nurtured my child. I have educated other people’s children. I give money to feed them, I do not begrudge paying taxes that pay for educating children, I volunteer at several food banks, in order to feed children. I believe in taking care of all children once they can live outside the womb. You cannot bear children, so don’t you go spouting your sanctimonious mouth about murder! You might as well join the rest of the crazy right wingers who cannot wait to overturn Roe! You have seriously pissed me off!

Genaire: Many people are not brain dead yet need the aide of breathing devices to sustain life. The invention of the iron lung, various oxygen machines are prime examples of this.

Anke M.: Up to a point dear, after a few days no improvement..bye bye.

Genaire: Anke, that’s your opinion and I respect your opinion. I as many like me do not follow that same logic.

Again not once did I say I disagree with people’s right to choose lol. People should be able to do what they want without government interference. I personally just call it what it is. You seem to always be posed off when someone opinion differs from your own lol. Same goes for your buddy Angie who questions the intelligence of people who have differing opinions. Breathing techniques help with this issue being someone who suffered from anger issues myself I know lol

My only point being we can’t compare the actions of someone who has devoted his life to saving lives to an organization that was founded by a eugenics who goal (being main or partial) is to end the possibility of life for people who have made irresponsible choices.

Genaire: People exist on the iron lung machine for years totally cognizant of what’s going on around them. I myself was recently told I have the lung capacity if a 70 year old man due to my severe untreated allergies. I have to take medications and am almost attached at the hip to my hepa filter. If it progressed beyond the group’s filter and I needed to go back into the oxygen tent as I’ve had to in the past I would still be deserving of life.

Anke M.: Genaire, your condition, sad as it makes me, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, namely the crazy Dr Who who is running for President(will never happen) being revealed as a total opportunistic hypocrite!
And….the debate about abortion rights. Which happens to be the law of the land! We, nobody, no politician , no crazy doctor, no clergy should spout of about it any more! I gave a great party when Roe v Wade was upheld by the Supreme Court!
I want this country to be what is was meant to be and as laid forth in the Constitution : Separation between Church and State! And men need to stay the hell away and out of my body!

Anke M.: Oh, and with your pre existing condition, don’t you say a “Thanks Obama” every day? I certainly would!

Genaire: No. I use a hepa filter. I still go unmedicated. I eat better and honestly I feel great not at all Thx to Obama care.

Genaire: Cutting dairy out of my diet has helped relieve most of the fluid build up.

Genaire: Killing babies at 13 weeks old. Yes it is murder then financially gaining.

Former Planned Parenthood Employee Makes Explosive Allegations About Abortion Provider’s ‘Fetal Tissue’ Donation Process:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/08/11/former-planned-parenthood-employee-makes-explosive-allegations-about-abortion-providers-fetal-tissue-donation-process/

Anke M.: The blaze? Really? Crazy Glenn Beck?

Genaire: I can find another media source if you so choose lol. I don’t think the source I’ve chosen would be important since it had been all over the news

GenaireUndercover Video Shows Planned Parenthood Official Discussing Fetal Organs Used for Research:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/undercover-video-shows-planned-parenthood-exec-discussing-organ-harvesting/2015/07/14/ae330e34-2a4d-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

Genaire: They later through a P.R. Campaign attempted to clean it up somewhat. But it is what it is. Then talking about crushing the fetus in a way to preserve it’s organs. Statements I doubt Dr. Carson would ever make.

Anke M.: Well , the darn organism was needed for research for Pete sake! Ben Carson could not care less several years ago when he did his research and wrote his paper…..so I think you seriously need to let it go and accept the fact that medical research is vital ! As is all research that advances us and betters our lives!

Genaire: Again I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be done. Stem cells should be researched. I just simply said I wouldn’t compare Carson to Planned Parenthood. That’s all. But somehow I’ve become antiabortion and anti medical progress throughout this debate lol

Angie M.: No. There is no profit made by nonprofits.

Angie M.: Translation: someone who became very emotional and incapable of rational thought after seeing a video of a 13-month-old fetus then became hysterical and forgot that the time involved in preparing organs to be donated also must be compensated. It is not profit. It is remuneration for preparation of fetal tissue to be used in life-saving medical research.

Angie M.: Using the words “killing babies” shows an uneducated, hyperbolic desire to mislead people. They aren’t babies. They are undeveloped fetuses and are not capable of viability outside of the womb. That means they cannot be babies by definition.

That is as absurd as saying that an egg is a chicken. It isn’t.

Genaire: They are promoting death then capitalizing on the deaths wether to gain a profit or to recoup some loss is still a far cry from from a doctor that appreciates the value of human life.

They receive 30-100 dollars per abortion. Over 1.2 million abortions are preformed annually. Sounds like a failed model when you have to further capitalize off these deaths to sustain your business non profit or otherwise.

What do you call the abortion of a 13 week old fetuses Angie Max? These fetuses obviously have working organs or these barbarians wouldn’t be working so hard to salvage them. I have an idea how about we salvage the viable organs from the people who condone this practice that makes more sense to me at least consent can be given.

Genaire: Now I’m by far for people’s right to choose but I call it what it is. Murder is murder death is death.

Genaire: Why delete your replies Angie Max be proud of them.

Genaire: And note I was referring to late term abortion where at 13 weeks a baby is capable of dreaming.

Genaire: Of course she confronts me then blocks me. Lol can’t take the heat.

Anke M.: Genaire, 13 weeks is not a late term abortion!

Genaire: That’s 4 months into a 9 month pregnancy almost half. When as I stated before the gender of the fetus can be determined and the fetus is capable dreaming. That seems pretty late term to me. You’ve had 4 months to determine that you a didn’t want to baby. That decision could have just as efficiently been determined at half that amount.

Anke M.: Dreaming? For chrissake, Genaire, that’s getting downright weird. And really, so what? Take it out of the womb, is it still dreaming? It is not viable dear! So enough with the dreams you’re dreaming!

Genaire: And so what if it’s 4 months, it’s not your body, so please you and every asshole men out here in Murica, stay out of our bodies!

Genaire: Again you are missing my point. Have a million abortions if one so chooses. As I’ve constantly stated people should have the right to choose what they do with their body’s without government interference. That wasn’t my point. Not really sure how it’s been determined that I’m anti abortion lol

Genaire: You yourself called me a libertarian if that so then you should know that I don’t feel the government should be allowed to make those types of decisions for people. So I would never vote against someone’s right to choose lol

Genaire: I think you’re all fired up and not really reading what I’m saying.Lol

Genaire: With all the anti-contraception available to people at this stage it’s extremely irresponsible to have an abortion at such a late stage. I’ve been married 13 years I’ve had zero abortions. Why? Because I practice safe responsible sex with my wife.

Anke M.: Well of course you’ve had zero abortions you’re a guy! Am sure if you had gotten pregnant we ALL would have read and heard about it!!
I don’t know where one can purchase conception stuff, other than in fertility clinics, if you meant anti conception products, sure if you live in the sane parts of the country. But tell that to women in Texas, Mississippi, etc! And religious crazies are still trying to deny women anti conception products!
Frankly Genaire, you are making me so angry and sick! You sanctimonious , uneducated Ayn Rand loving man. She loved abortion you know! Anyway, enough already, you just have no clue, and hide behind strange Libertarian ideas.
I feel sorry for Rayn, having to put up with such a strange , out of touch, superior feeling nobody.
Then again, that’s probably why you behave this way. You feeling better now? You should not, cause everyone is laughing at you!
And while you are at it, try to write in proper English! Thank you very much !

Genaire: 1. I’m with my wife because she feels as I do. She is definitely a note extremist than I. She doesn’t believe in abortion for any reason.

2. As far as people laughing at me. What exactly are they laughing at. I never said that I disagree with a woman’s right to abortion. What one does with one’s body is their own business has always been my stance. I’m actually baffled at this point as to why you keep attempting to make that my point. Don’t worry Anke, I’m not trying to take anyone’s right to abortion.

3. As far as proper English goes I apologize if I’m not being understood. I’m at work as I am always. My attentions are split between making my points (that aren’t truly understood apparently) to making sure my trainee follows the rules of the road.

5. Anti-contraception ie condoms and female condoms can indeed be purchased in Texas and are a far more responsible first option. If that fails then in most states you can purchase a morning after pill. Only in the mind of a staunch progressive is it ok to abort a fetus when it’s sex can be determined. AGAIN WHO AM I TO TELL SOMEONE THEY DON’T HAVE THAT RIGHT JUST STATING A PERSONAL OPINION. Just to be clear.

5. Frankly Anke you make points for me that aren’t my own then get angry about the points you seek to be my own. Then like the typical liberal start to question my intelligence. Well I’m here with my student and we are laughing at the stance of the typical liberal as we speak.

Rayn: Anke, I really don’t appreciate your comment, “I feel sorry for Rayn, having to put up with such a strange, out of touch, superior feeling nobody.” I view it as unjustifiably hostile and provocative. I’ll note what I just wrote on my husband’s FB wall, in reply to the similarly-themed recent statement from you, “for a young man, you seem to have some strange sexist thoughts, especially married to a strong woman like Rayn!”:

“I truly, truly loathe being forced to dig myself out of a hole just because someone else decides to carelessly drop me into one against my will. This is especially true when such a situation involves personal attacks against me, or erroneous claims about my personal life, and even more so, when the forum where I’m expected to defend myself under duress is public. And, these particular comments of yours place me in that exact, perturbing position.”

Meanwhile, since I was mentioned in this way by you, allow me to clarify my ACTUAL position on the issue you two debated here, so that you will know my real viewpoint, from this day forward, with zero room for speculation, conjecture, or presumption…

For your information, I *personally* don’t believe in having an abortion (for myself) for any reason, outside of a life-threatening pregnancy (i.e. ectopic pregnancy). Yet, I do, consider myself very pro-choice as well as pro-life. I just so happen to completely disagree with the average so-called “feminist” about the chronology of when such “choice” takes place. Personally, I place my primary focus of “choice” upon whether or not to engage in the act of sexual intercourse, itself, with special consideration for “why,” “when,” “where” and “with whom.” With all of these things fully established, and a prospective consensual, STD-free sexual partner determined, the second round of “choice” would follow – taking place long before any sexual intercourse transpires, of course.

TOGETHER, my prospective sexual partner and I would decide whether pregnancy is our desired result (since it is ALWAYS a possibility). In the case that we determine pregnancy not to be our intent, a third round of “choice” would follow, once again before any sexual intercourse takes place, as we would decide upon which of a limited number of physical contraceptives to utilize, since I would, at that time, explain my complete unwillingness to take any sort of monthly chemical contraceptives, have any abortion procedures, nor ingest any “morning after” chemicals. If my prospective sexual partner finds the limited choice of available contraceptives too risky, or is extremely against pregnancy, then I will point out that he always has the “choice” to get a vasectomy, or to abstain from sex with me.

Don’t get me wrong, though: this is my PERSONAL viewpoint, that I choose to live by. Far be it from me to deny another woman the “legally”-and-socially-acceptable option of murdering her own unborn offspring as a means of alleviating herself from either her own irresponsible sexual choices, and/or her failed contraceptive efforts. In truth, I wouldn’t even feel remotely comfortable forcing that sort of “mother” on a defenseless child, neither invivo, nor post-birth – though, I’d much rather save the life she holds hostage, and seeks to destroy! Of course, I also wholeheartedly agree that every woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy in the case of rape, because I uphold consent as the supreme law of living. 

With my viewpoint now laid bare, it should be pretty apparent that I don’t believe in, nor have I ever engaged in, “casual sex,” as I consider it completely irresponsible, as a woman, especially in light of the fact that biology dictates sexual intercourse as the most direct means of pregnancy and/or STD, with females being the universal recipient of the former, and the vastly-higher recipient of the later, versus heterosexual men. I also don’t believe in engaging in intercourse with any man who is not completely committed to me in a long-term relationship, nor any man who is not father-material (in the case of an unexpected pregnancy). In truth, I’ve only had one sexual partner before my husband – a man I was engaged to when I was 20 years old – and we only had intercourse about four times. Meanwhile, I married my husband a month before I turned 22 years old, and we’ve been happily, monogamously together in matrimony for almost 14 years, now, with our anniversary coming in 17 days.

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