The following debate originally took place upon my Facebook wall, after I posted artwork being shared by the page “Citizens For Self Governance“…
Brian J.: But we do need big Government to get rid of Nuclear weapons. That can help.
Rayn: Say what? Big Governments are the ones inventing, manufacturing and harboring nukes! If you expect these pathocracies to “get rid” of the very weapons they force their tax-slaves to pay for, then terrorize the entire world with, in demand of yet more ransom, prepare to be sorely disappointed!
A Time-Lapse Map of Every Nuclear Explosion Since 1945:
Big governments represent one of the largest threats to the the entire planet, humanity included!
The religion of Statism is always trying to convince humanity that Big Government is our “savior,” but critical thinking dictates that the only thing the State ever really “saves” us from are phantom threats and manufactured crises!
Brian J.: But that’s one way to get rid of nuclear weapons, is through big Government. That’s actually the only way it can happen.
Brian J.: The state are not people, and they don’t care about people. In reality, it is big Government that has made a lot of positive changes throughout history, as well as negative changes as well. And that’s every silver lining. I know that you have a fundamentalist way of viewing the world and big Government, but it’s not all black and white. It’s mostly shades of grey.
Rayn: By that logic, only weapons manufacturers can rid the world of guns…
Brian J.: That can happen. It probably won’t be the first time either.
Rayn: If by “fundamentalist,” you mean to say that I own myself, I only respect consensual contracts, I view the initiation of force as illegitimate, I have a right to self-defense, I don’t believe in the “original sin/chaos” myth, nor do I commit or promote murder and human sacrifice, then I’m guilty as charged! If you meant something different, please clarify…
Rayn: Big Government, or not, all human claims of “authority” over me are illegitimate, because I have not consented to ANY of them!
Brian J.: No, I mean that you have a fundamentalist perspective of the world, and you have more black and white thinking on issues. When in reality, life is more of a grey area. I choose to look at both sides of an issue. And after everything that I’ve read, big Government can do positive things from time to time, and I have mentioned good things that big Government has accomplished in this country, while also doing a lot of bad things as well.
Brian J.: And by the way, the states are not people. The state doesn’t care about you, and neither does Government. Government only does positive things for it’s people, when it benefits them. Which is true for everybody. People only do good things or bad things, because it makes them feel good. Which is probably morality 101. Lol!
Rayn: Since I critically think, I miss out on these blacks, whites, and grays you speak of. I’m too busy operating with a full rainbow spectrum of colors, my friend!
Rayn: You believe I don’t read “both sides” of issues? Please provide evidence of this claim.
Brian J.: It’s just my experience with you. You’ve always come across as an ignorant person. And everybody is ignorant, but you seem to enjoy it, in a very odd way. It’s not critical thinking when you continue to out down one side of an issue, and fail to acknowledge the other side of the issue. I’ve pointed out some positive things that Government has done, and you fail to even comment or acknowledge that, and just continue to bash Government. And no Government is completely good, but I can acknowledge when big Government has made some sort of accomplishment. Like building railroads, getting rid of slavery, getting rid of Jim Crowe laws, getting universal healthcare for 30 million people, building highways, free ways, and hospitals. So yes, big Government can do some good in the world, when it benefits them in the long run. So my point is that it’s not all bad.
Brian J.: Big Government also got us into outer space, and onto the moon. And only a BIG universal Government will get us to Mars. Big Government has also helped out a lot of poor people get food and shelter. I can’t deny this, so I can’t go around saying all Government is bad on a daily basis, without looking bias.
Rayn: By the way, I don’t view the State as alive, nor a person, nor do I pretend that it cares about me. So, for you to repeatedly mention these things, as though you expect me to disagree with you, is confusing…
Brian J.: I’m just tired of people mentioning the state. I only care about helping people. Whether I use Government, state, or myself is another discussion. As long as people are being helped, I’m happy. The real problem that we have are corrupted cops, a corrupted Government, corrupted states, and people being threatened to be put in prison for not paying their taxes. Government and religion are not gods, they change. And they’re used by people, so people tend to be the real problem here. At least in my opinion.
Rayn: Ha! Government sociopaths looted billions in tax-slave dollars trying to colonize and weaponize space, whereas real human beings would have been concerned about peaceful things, such as combating government-created wars, poverty, and imperialism!
Rayn: Next, you’ll be telling me that slave-mastering white supremacism is what “got” Europeans into the Americas!
Rayn: If you’re tired of others mentioning the State, that’s sounds like a personal problem that I can’t help you with. Meanwhile, I don’t use the government. They are the ones that use me, threaten me, harass me, molest me, rob me, kidnap me, imprison me, hold me hostage, enact institutionalized ableism, prosecute me, and generally treat me as though I am their property, while simultaneously denying me the right to peaceful, self-sustaining existence, in order that I live in poverty, instead, to give off the “appearance” that I require anything other than to be left the fuck alone!
Brian J.: Government has molested you and raped you? I hope this is a figure of speech. Lol!
Brian J.: Government also went to outer space, got rid of slavery, and it’s also provided healthcare, railroads, highways, and health care for me. Yeah, Government is bad. But I wouldn’t be here, without Government. So I would look like a hypocrite for putting down Government on a daily basis. And we’re all hypocrites. That’s arguably the only religion that everybody worships, without even realizing it.
Brian J.: Ryan, that’s called every silver lining. I don’t like psychopaths, but we wouldn’t be here, without psychopaths or sociopaths. Which is called irony.
Rayn: “It’s just my experience with you. You’ve always come across as an ignorant person,” you say, Brian? LOL! In 2012, when I was exposing Obama’s war crimes against the civilians of Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Uganda on my FB wall, you replied by saying, “their civilians have it coming, it’s called collateral damage.” Read it for yourself, here:
Debate Over 2012 Presidential Debates:
Now… who ended up changing their mind? You or me? LOL! Who’s the ignorant one, again?
“It’s not critical thinking when you continue to out down one side of an issue, and fail to acknowledge the other side of the issue,” you say? I could tell you ALL about the so-called “good” aspects of murdering civilians, like you so “fairly” did, above, but that would make me a fraud and a lizard!
By the way, swami… it’s completely intellectually dishonest to claim that a government who INSTITUTED SLAVERY BY LAW is the one responsible for ENDING IT! No, my son! The government conceded nothing without a death-struggle from hundreds of thousands of free men and women of the world! Next, you’ll be telling me that the government put the UNDERGROUND RAILROAD in place! LOLOL! Is this that “grey thinking” you were bragging to me about?
Genaire: Response to your responses:
“But we do need big Government to get rid of Nuclear Weapons.””That can help.”
1. Big government manufactures and fund the development of these weapons. It is not in their interest to dismantle the nuclear weapons program since at present is it’s only real source of power. You can solve a problem by looking to the source of the problem for solutions.
The black and white of it all is Government is responsible for more then any single human, then all accidents combined.
Government is responsible for the institution of slavery. It only ended when societies views on the issue had changed.
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
I personally would put Rayn’s knowledge against anyone’s on a multitude of subjects. So I believe that statement to be false and fueled by something darker.
Rayn: My name’s not “Ryan,” swami. It’s RAYN. Can’t you see the black and white letters before your eyes? Should I write it in gray to be safe, maybe?
Brian J.: Ryan, I know that you like bringing up what I said in the past, as some form of argument, but you still haven’t addressed what I said. Yes, Government did abolish slavery. Government is not a God, since it can change. Sorry if I’ve offended you, but I’ve rarely viewed you as an open minded person, but more of an ignorant individual.
Genaire: Government created slavery in the first place Brian. It was only through the civil disobedience of the activist movement that caused government imposed slavery to change.
Brian J.: 1. Government can get rid of Nuclear weapons, if they felt like it. They’re actually the only ones who can get rid of Nuclear weapons. And that’s gonna be the responsibility of a worldwide Government someday. Nuclear weapons are not gonna be abolished by some corporation, or Occupy Wall street, which was funded by billionaires. Only Government will abolish nuclear weapons.
2. You proved my point by acknowledging that Government abolished slavery, and it also got rid of the Jim Crowe laws.
3. Rayn sounds like an ignorant person. And we’re all ignorant, but I’m pretty aware of my ignorance.
4. I’ve pointed out the positive things that Government has done in the past, and Rayn will not only avoid acknowledging those things, she’ll just continue to put down Government. Which is fine, but it’s pretty fundamentalist.
Brian J.: Right, but Government still abolished slavery. You do realize that they didn’t have to abolish slavery, and could of whipped out the abolitionist movement? Government is not a god, and it’s not a demon. You and Rayn keep acting like Government is some sort of higher power, and it’s not. It’s big Government that chose to abolish slavery, and they only did it to keep the Unions. They didn’t do it out of the kindness of it’s heart. Again, big Government will only do positive things for other people, if it benefits them. I’m not naive enough to assume that American Government wanted to save black people, Lincoln just wanted to save the Unions. It was about money. But even then, we have to still acknowledge that Government has done some positive things in the past. At least in more capitalist societies. The communist societies are a little more hectic, but I could probably find some order amidst of all that chaos.
Genaire: 1. They can but they won’t. The government collective tax apparatus is the only entity that can afford the creation of these weapons.
2. It only abolished slavery because it lost the consent of the people. Slavery does not exist if the people do not consent. The native Americans are a prime example of this fact.
3. Rayn does nothing all day but read, read, and read some more. As the definition of the word states you must not have knowledge to be classified as ignorant. I know very few that can challenge Rayn’s knowledge on a vast array of subjects and I know even fewer that can on the subject of the American government.
4. Their are positive outcomes of collectivism yes. But the problem comes in when you elect a ruler ie government.
Genaire: If government is the one that imposing slavery in the first place mentioning it abolished it is a moot point.
Brian J.: Actually, Government could abolish Nuclear weapons, if it benefits them.
Right, so Government abolished slavery. You keep agreeing with that point.
Rayn reads shit that appeals to her own worldview. Good for her. That tends to bore me after awhile.
Our Government is a system of autonomy. Decisions are made by many, not just one. The problem is that when Government becomes corrupt, it starts ignoring the needs of the people, and focuses on their own narcissistic needs. And giving power back to the states, isn’t going to cure anything. States do not care about you.
Brian J.: It’s not a moot point, it’s a fact. Government is not a god, it changes. Sometimes, itchanges for the better. And most of time, it can get worse. That’s actually the nature of a capitalist society. I’m not condoning it, I just have an understanding of it. I take the good, with the bad.
Rayn: My name’s not “Ryan,” swami. It’s RAYN. That’s the second time I had to point that out, so your IGNORANCE is on full display, now…
“I know that you like bringing up what I said in the past, as some form of argument,” you say? I brought up what you said because it was DIRECT PROOF of your ignorance… Don’t get it twisted.
Brian J.: It’s called a typo. Excuse your fundamentalism for a second. I’m just pointing out your own ignorance. And the more you keep arguing against a particular position, you might end up agreeing with it. That’s one of the first rules of philosophy. So you could end up becoming the one thing that you dislike the most. That’s a reasonable possibility. It’s actually probable.
Genaire: It doesn’t benefit them so that’s also a moot point.
Government enforced slavery through its laws. Yes some people can force other to do their bidding but it is up to government to make it law.
I’m here and I know that Rayn’s reading list is extensive. Facts are facts if they support your view then I really don’t see the problem. She could read fiction but I think that defeats the point.
Our government is provably failing. Even by your posts you can attest to that.
Brian J.: Has it ever occured to you that the world might not be run by mostly psychopaths, but people with cognitive dissonance? Everybody has cognitive dissonance, but most people seem to be more intuned with their cognitive dissonance than others. It’s been scientifically proven that everybody has cognitive dissonance. And if you’re really intuned with your cognitive dissonance, then you might be capable of killing a huge amount of people. And killing people doesn’t make you a psychopath. It’s called cognitive dissonance. So excuse me for “thinking” here. Lol!
Genaire: Our government is plutocracy. If you have money you get the laws to swing in your favor. Until they remove money from politics we won’t see that changing anytime soon.
Brian J.: Yes, all Governments fail, but it’s not always failing. We will have universal healthcare for most Americans in my life time. And Government abolished slavery, and did other positive things that I just mentioned. So it’s not a moot point. You’re just so against Government, that you fail to see anything positive that Government might have done. Even I can name 5 positive things that religion has done for the world. It’s not that hard.
Brian J.: No shit.
Genaire: I know healthcare is a huge point for you Brian but it will never be free even in your lifetime.
Brian J.: Did I say it would be free?
Brian J.: The only free things in NYC, are free movies, which probably comes out of my tax dollars.
Genaire: It’s already universal so I’m assuming you mean free.
Brian J.: No, universal means that it’s actually available for people. And it’s certainly better than the last system that we got. And we also need background checks on the police. Because these people need some serious therapy.
Brian J.: Can you name three good things that the US Government has done? I’ve mentioned like 5 things. I could probably find close to 20 positive things that Obama has done in his first term. It’s not that hard. I dislike his foreign policy, but Obama is clearly better than Bush in some cases. But definitely worse than Eisenhower.
Rayn: “I’ve rarely viewed you as an open minded person, but more of an ignorant individual,” you say, Brian? To say this to me knowing that I’ve schooled you before only exposes *your* ignorance…
For more examples of your ability to think beyond the ignorant “black and white” of issues like murder, and courageously jump forward into the much more “progressive,” thoughtful and intelligent, “grey area” of “collateral damage,” read here:
Debate Over 2012 Presidential Debates:
Genaire: I will address the government imposed slavery laws one last time. It’s as if you are exhibiting Stockholm syndrome. The government imposed slavery of course the government can abolish it. It however was not done with out the loss of consent of the people not the government.
Brian J.: Right, and I’ve admitted my ignorance on that subject, and I changed my mind, based on evidence. Can you actually do that? Have you ever changed your mind on anything? Do you ever feel a weight on your shoulders, when you’re analyzing a particular subject? I don’t think so, because you do come across as an ignorant person. But I actually, and now you’re just bringing up a debate from 2012, and I think you posted that on your website, without my consent. Amazing.
Brian J.: Right, but my point is that Government never had to abolish slavery in the first place. They never had to listen to the people. So who’s having Stockholm Syndrome again?
Genaire: The mentioning of five means nothing when the counterpoint comes from the same entity.
Government abolished slave government enforced/empowered slavery. Universal healthcare… I really don’t know what that means? Healthcare has always been universal. You pay for the treatment and you will always find a doctor willing to treat and yes sine doctor do charity work. What were the other 3 points?
Genaire: Yes they did. Government law only can be applied to a consenting populace.
Genaire: If someone choose to enslave me and I have no consent I can refuse to do the work ask of me I can refuse to eat a die. The native Americans refuse consent.
Brian J.: It’s actually much easier to find a doctor under Obamacare, which was originally Romneycare. The older healthcare system was a joke compared to most other countries with Universal healthcare. And Government got us to the moon, and into outer space. Which can open the door to traveling into other wormholes, and find other intelligent life to help us with our resources. But I’m probably thinking too far ahead. Lol!
Brian J.: If that’s the case, then why hasn’t Government decided to do background checks on gun owners? The Government, and the State doesn’t have to do anything for the people, base on a consensus. So the Government clearly abolished slavery, because of the Unions.
Brian J.: The Native Americans got fucked over. In plain English, and they continue to get fucked over.
Brian J.: But seriously Rayn, have you ever changed your mind on anything? I’ve literally changed my mind on a couple of different subjects in the last 4 years alone. That’s the sign of a truly educated person. Real talk.
Genaire: They want nothing more then to do background checks on people. They just don’t have complete consent prior are threatening violence at the mere mentioning of taking away the right to bare arms. Unions of whom Brian… The people…
Yes the native American got fucked over but I would rather live and die free then to be a slave so honestly who got fucked over worse?
Genaire: I can answer that question. When I met Rayn she was a recovering democrat and actually had to deal with a lot of flack for me being a republican. Over time her and I both became more Libertarian.
Brian J.: 80% of the American people want background checks. That’s a consensus, and the Government doesn’t give a shit.
Genaire: The NRA is a very powerful lobby
Brian J.: Indians didn’t really die free for a long time. And there are more African American billionaires in the east century, than Native American billionaires. At least from what I’m aware of. So who’s getting screwed over in the long run? Have we ever had a Native American president? I don’t know. Lol!
Brian J.: No shit.
Genaire: My views and Rayn’s views greatly differ still I can’t argue her facts.
Brian J.: And you’re views are not conservative at all. You’re a liberal, just like me. It’s liberals that abolished slavery, that opposed Vietnam, that opposed the war in Iraq, that wanted Universal healthcare, that wanted interracial marriage. So when I’m called a liberal, I wear it as a badge of honor 🙂
Genaire: I’m not in anyway liberal lol. I believe in limited government. I don’t want most of the tax draining social programs. I would get rid of most of the entitlement programs. I feel very few in society are incapable of working.
Genaire: I’m not a war hawk but my views are extremely conservative. Petite actually get really mad at me when I excited my true views so I generally try to tone it down. Even Rayn argues with me on my views calling me heartless at times.
Genaire: I would privatize nearly every aspect of life.
Brian J.: You’re a liberal! You and Rayn helped me to become the liberal that I’AM 🙂
Brian J.: The problem with privatizing the Police, is that they’ll only help you, if you pay them on the spot. Which would be an even worse country than what we’re already living in. Lol!
Genaire: The republican party as it stands today aren’t truly conservative. They are in my opinion Rino’s. Republican in name only. True conservative want everything privatized which would lead to a real reduction in taxes. Rayn is something different. Rayn has gone from Libertarian to Anarchist.
Genaire: Excuse me Democrat to Libertarian to Anarchist
Brian J.: Lol!
Genaire: I wouldn’t privatize the police but I would bring then away from what we have bite and more towards having to elect police office life they do with the sheriff’s.
Brian J.: The problem with privatizing police, is that you would have a more corrupted police force. And I’m probably more anarchist, but I’m purely liberal.
Genaire: Read my above comment Brian Jensen. I wouldn’t privatize but I would allow the people to vote the pigs out.
Brian J.: That’s a lot of police to get rid of. Lol!
Brian J.: So what will we have, watchmen? But who’s watching the watchmen?
Genaire: The sheriff would have the option to keep then our fire them as needed and if he gets voted out his officers would have to go with him. The new sheriff would have the option to rehire them.
Genaire: The armed populace would watch the watchmen.
Genaire: I’m a strong advocate for killing the pigs that brutalize the people.
Brian J.: Which is a chaotic system. Sorry, but I don’t think that worldview is the solution.
Genaire: What the ability to defend ones self? The second amendment was put into our constitution to defend the people against tyrannical government not ones neighbors.
Genaire: If one doesn’t have the drive to defend oneself one is a slave.
Genaire: Let me put it another way. If you were armed would you allow the police to beat you if you know you are not guilty of committing any crimes?
Brian J.: Right, but you’re system is more chaotic. Death, doesn’t solve death issues.
Brian J.: Of course not, but you’re system is just as self defeating as the system that we have now.
Genaire: What system is that? The fact that we should elect our police or the fact that we all have a right to protect ourselves? Honestly in our present system you have the right to defend yourself up to and including that officers death if you are not breaking any laws.
Brian J.: So who decides to kill which police officer, and how do we determine who committed the crime? Is there due process?
Genaire: I’m not suggesting that we kill police. I’ve always have been empowered when dealing with the police when I know I’ve committed no crimes. So I know I won’t tuck my tail in between my legs and allow them to beat on me.
Brian J.: Right, you have to defend your life. But you really want the police to not catch a criminal, unless you paid them on the spot?
Genaire: That’s not what I said. I said I believe the police should be kept on a sheriff type system where the people can vote them out.
Genaire: But virtually everything else I would privatized.
Brian J.: That sounds good. People should get the vote.
Genaire: That’s why I prefer sheriff’s over the regular police.
John T.: Even if you have not committed a crime, when police choose to be intolerable; there’s no one to justify his actions. Cover ups will always have you guessing what’s wrong with the world. If you have not had the experience you will be shocked and surprised how you ended up a victim with no way of receiving justice.
Brian J.: I agree. 🙂
(All original portions of this work, by Rayn Kleipe, are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License, while all redistributed links, images, sounds, videos, and writings are protected under 17 U.S.C. § 107: Fair Use, or under Public Domain)