The following debate originally took place on my Facebook wall, upon my post, “The Doublethink is Strong Among Neo-Liberals“…
Rayn: The Doublethink is strong with this one!
Katherine C.: Ok, you do realize that no matter what president we get, given the history and present state of the US and the world, and everything the US has dipped its hand into, some form of war is pretty much inevitable.
Jordan K.: Cancer pretty much inevitable too, does that mean we accept it or should we keep trying to find a cure?
Adam G.: Regardless of which party is in control, capitalism needs war and imperialism to stay alive.
Rayn: Of course, Katherine, you comment begs the question: “then, why does the Texan above have a bumper sticker containing the name ‘Obama’ with the a peace sign inside of the ‘O’?” An even better question would be, “why did Obama receive a Nobel Peace Prize, then, if he simply continued this ‘inevitable’ war you speak of?”
Either way, I reject your fallacious Appeal to probability as a cause for inaction, Katherine, and replace it with logic. Slavery is at an all-time high right now in the world. Should we apply your faulty reasoning to this issue, as well, so as to wash our hands of the matter, and do nothing about it? I mean, it’s going to happen anyway, so why bother, right? WRONG!
And, while you may claim that no matter which president gets in, there will be more war, this is actually just Circular reasoning. Since 2004, the public has consistently been presented with a False dichotomy wherein BOTH of the major party primary candidates are PRO-WAR! We have NO IDEA what would take place if this “framing” of the issues were not taking place – with the full support of the mainstream media monopoly!
When our government engages in War Crimes and Crimes against peace as a BIPARTISAN matter of policy, it is completely illegitimate, unacceptable and repugnant, deserving neither our respect, our support, nor our tax dollar funding, as Americans!
Katherine C.: To Jordan: Cancer is a totally different thing! And we can’t control what other countries are doing or what they will do.
Rayn, I’m not trying to get into a long drawn out argument with you. You do far more research about this than I do and cannot argue. It was a mere comment. It’s not that I’m pro war, but with our history, what is going on in the world, and to maintain our status, some form is war really does seem inevitable. And honestly, push comes to shove, we’ve already seen that as outraged as people may get over war, it’s still an acceptable part of politics. Again, not saying I agree with this, but it seems to be the state of things. You spend a lot of time criticizing the format we have now, but what are real alternatives? I would love to hear them!
Jordan K.: It is a different thing you are right. I was just trying to make the point that wherever there is a shred of hope to save lives we should do our best to honor that hope.
Brian J.: Yes, what are the other alternatives? Let’s lay down our arms, get out of different countries, and call for peace. We would also have to ask for forgiveness, for being the biggest terrorist nation in the last 200 years.
Rayn: Katherine, I do not accept war as a means of fighting terrorism, as WAR IS TERRORISM! And, you and I both know from previous discussions that OUR GOVERNMENT is the one that has been creating, financing, training, and weaponizing these so-called “terrorists” for decades, now, so the only real threat is DOMESTIC, NOT FOREIGN! I will happy to provide the links again, if necessary. Aside from this, I am absolutely against War Crimes and Crimes against peace, which is a completely separate human rights issue that seems to be erroneously lumped into the definition of “war.” Meanwhile, I will continue to view the The Non-Aggression Principle as the logical, peaceful and equality-based alternative to violent, coercive force! “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” – Issac Asimov
Brian J.: Violence is just lame. And Obama falls under the same old bullshit. Even some of the liberal media has criticized him for his war crimes. Rachel Maddow wrote a book, criticizing the war. Michael Moorer criticized Obama for his war crimes, and so has Bill Maher.
Brian J.: Which allows me to give kudos to the liberal media. Because the conservative media, rarely criticized Bush for his war crimes. And their not criticizing Obama, for his war crimes. I guess that says a lot about the Republican party. Lol!
Katherine C.: Jordan, I agree, and it sucks that things are the way they are, but I’m stepping aside from my feelings and ideals and just saying what I see out there.
Brian, 1) Laying down arms: that would make us vulnerable to other no so peace loving countries that hate us. There are many as we all know.
2) Get out of different countries: our economy will crash, among other things
3) Call for peace: sure, why not?
4) Apologize for being the biggest terrorists: Well, lets not forget about England as well.
Rayn, What I’m saying is that it’s easy to want all these things, I would too, but it’s not realistic. Unfortunately, it’s about making a change and tricking most of America into it. And as for capitalism, it’s so ingrained in our society, getting rid of it is a bitch, and what other country has a better working model?? Not very many if at all
Brian J.: Actually, it wouldn’t make us vulnerable. We could keep the military, and some weapons, but we have to lay down our nuclear arms. Why would you want other nations to lay down their arms, if we can’t? We have to do the same, or it will look like hypocrisy.
Brian J.: And what countries actually hate us? There’s only a few that seem to hate us, but those are the leaders, not the people. Most people seem to love us. We’re the ones who create terrorists, so we are the biggest enemy, to both ourselves and other nations. Our economy wouldn’t crash, if we stopped occupying different nations, for no reason. We don’t have to get out of Korea, since their not that trust-worthy. But we have no business being in Germany, or other nations that are not that violent. And we’ve become a global empire, we’re a terrorist nation. Terrorism will only end, when we come to an end. And instead of letting it be a violent end, let’s just end it peacefully. It can be done. 🙂
Rayn: I don’t trust the mainstream media monopoly, whatsoever, as they are the ones that fed us the WMD lies, and the War in Iraq, having been completely infiltrated by the Pentagon, since the Bush days. That is why I utilize alternative news sources, instead. They are much more journalistic, because they have no need to cater to corporate sponsors, but responsibility become a mutual effort, as open-source fact-checking begets more fact checking. It is much more dynamic, interactive and cooperative, while mainstream media presentations are utterly passive and consumer-based, in comparison.
I do agree, though, Brian, that we should most definitely lay down our arms in the countries we occupy, and return our troops home! If we don’t give up on this worthless, endless, unnecessary “War on Terrorism,” the world-wide human rights movement will continue to nose-dive right before our very eyes, and our country will soon crash and burn because of it!
Charles C.: Democracy Now!
Brian J.: Exactly. And the fall of America, will happen a lot quicker than the fall of Rome, because of the internet.
Katherine C.: And what I hear is revolution talk and that’s fine, but what the heck comes later??! It’s not just about changing a few things. Creating or fixing an efficient government is so much more complicated than just, hey let’s put away our weapons and lets tell the world we’re horrible people…what then?!
Brian J.: What then? Figure it out. It will certainly be better, than the path that we’re on. The path of war, only leads to more destruction. So the opposite of that, will probably create better fruit. It will take awhile, but it can be done. Kingdoms have had peace before, and we can have peace again. Or at least a small amount of worldwide violence. I think you’re just use to war, and that’s the problem with the American people. We’re use to death worship, destruction, and violence. That’s why it needs to stop, before we see more mushroom clouds.
Katherine C.: Yeah grouping people into stereotypes is real helpful. A quick history lesson, revolutions are rarely peaceful, and once achieved revolutionaries usually have a hard time in determining what should be. And until it is figured out, mayhem ensues and everybody suffers
Brian J.: That’s the process. Things become chaotic, before order is restored.
Brian J.: We could have a revolution, without violence. Look at the civil rights movement. And if Occupy Wall St had real leadership, they would become more effective. Instead, all they do is blame others, for their bad situation. So where’s the growth?
Katherine C.: I’m sorry, are you saying the civil rights movement was peaceful?? Seriously??
Brian J.: Did they commit any violent acts? No. The civil rights movement had violence, but none of it came from them.
Brian J.: A revolution can be done, without any violence from those who start the revolution. Ghandi made a big change, with no violence, but he wasn’t a saint. We don’t need to bomb people overseas, and kill civilians for profit. Half of the terrorists in the world, are created by us. And drone attacks, only creates more terrorists, since war is terrorism.
Katherine C.: No, they uh, u know, just took a hell of a beating time and time again…some even died. Not much violence there!
Ghandi wasn’t the reason India was liberated. England was broke after WWI and WWII. Ghandi happened to be there at the right time.
Brian J.: Right, but did the civil rights movement use violence, to make their point? You’re not paying attention to what I’m saying. The civil rights movement used peace, and love, to end the Jim Crow laws, and have equal rights.
Brian J.: How is bombing people, and creating more war, gonna solve the problems that we’re dealing with? Again, you seem to be use to war, and can’t think of any other possible world that we could live in. War is terrorism, it doesn’t create peace. We’ve had nothing, but War, since WW2.
Brian J.: And Ghandi was one of the major reasons, to why India was liberated. He made a difference, with no violence.
Brian J.: The US Government gives weapons, to other terrorist groups, to fight against other terrorist groups. This doesn’t solve anything.
Katherine C.: U know for someone against violence, ur the one that keeps mentioning it! I haven’t said that we need bombs and shit. I’m saying that peaceful revolutions are rare. And merely revolting, even if u had that many supporters, is not enough. You act like it’s so easy and simple. And Ghandi wouldn’t have made that much of a change if it didn’t happen right after WWII when England was broke as hell.
Brian J.: Just because their rare, doesn’t mean it can’t be done. The path that we’re on, isn’t going anywhere. And it seems that you’re succumbing to the system itself, without thinking of a better solution. And it doesn’t matter when or where Ghandi started the revolution. The fact is that he did it, without the usage of violence. So it can be done.
Brian J.: Violence has to be done to you, without using any violence. It’s called “turning the other cheek.”
Brian J.: That’s the whole point of protesting. The civil rights movement, and Occupy Wall St are none-violent movements, and the violence is always done to them. That’s the best course of action.
Katherine C.: Statement of fact: a mass amount of people don’t usually riot or revolt unless they have very little or nothing to lose. U think those ppl at the occupy Wall Street would be there if they had jobs? Most ppl in the US are happy enough that they won’t protest and revolt. And the reason u don’t hear a solution from me is cuz I don’t have one. I keep my ears open and read what I can outside the US and try to make the best decisions I can based on that. I’m fully aware of how much our government sucks, but unless I’m gonna go and become a revolutionary, I’m not gonna sit here and bitch and whine about how our government sucks if I myself choose to not protest and go all in.
Brian J.: A lot of the people at Occupy Wall ST do have jobs. Their just tired of the hypocrisy of the Government.
Katherine C.: Well, good luck to you and your peaceful protest
Brian J.: It’s certainly better, than assuming that war is the only option. Lol!
Katherine C.: Omg! I did not say that! I’m saying that historically, it’s not usually been the case. I’m actually a very peaceful person and have never been in a physical fight in my life. I’m just stating the facts of history, which only a fool would ignore
Brian J.: Check out Cyrus the Persian King. His kingdom had peace for 100 years. It can be done again. 🙂
Katherine C.: Goodness gracious! Lol I’m out. Rayn: I hope u are reading this stuff and laughing at us cuz I sure as hell would be
Genaire: Katherine you do realize that we have not elected a non Democrat or Republican President into office since 1853. You ask most Americans how many political parties does the United States have and your answer by a majority would be only two. The public at large is woefully ignorant to what is going on in this country politically. They either don’t know or don’t care that the same major corporations gave major campaign contributions to both Romney and Obama. With that in mind you have to ask yourself if the political puppets are being controlled by the same puppeteers why would we expect to see change. What Rayn and others like her are doing are informing and bringing attention to the criminality that is taking place on a daily bases in our political system. Change can and will come our present course of action is unsustainable as our national (growing) debt of 16,263, 460, 788,284.45 would dictate.
Katherine C.: Genaire: I understand and know all that. That is not my point. I was merely trying to state historical patterns, being that people don’t usually revolt or change their government until they have very little or nothing to lose. People in America for the most part are happy enough to not do anything. Which one of us is actually leaving our cushy lives to go and create a new party and put in grassroots efforts into it. Not very many. I wish change would happen, that would be wonderful, but since I’m not gonna leave my cushy life, all that is left is bitching and whining on Facebook.
Genaire: My point exactly. Our country is getting to that nothing to lose point. Unemployment is at a all time high and don’t let the present numbers fool you they just stopped counting those that have stopped looking for work. On your second point you don’t have to leave your cushy job the other parties have been here all the time they aren’t allow either in the mainstream puppeteer run political debates.
We just have tob break free of the maintenance grip and inform people that things can and will be run different cause we can not continue on this President course.
Katherine C.: Genaire, when I say nothing to lose, I mean just that. When people are without homes, without jobs. Most people still have all that. Unemployment is still less than a tenth of the country. And I agree, we do have to break free. When I voted, wherever possible, I voted for another party that wasn’t rep or dem, but it’s gonna take real leadership and following and a real grassroots effort to get one of these other parties into the mainstream
Genaire: It’s going to take the informed few and a great deal of social networking 🙂