The following debate originally took place upon the Facebook wall of family…
Genaire: Firefighters Watch As Tennesee Home Burns To The Ground:
Raheem G.: nope… its called the free rider effect, we’re learning this in intro to pol. right now. the law requires people to pay the fee, but people dnt pay, thinkin that it will get taken care of anyway. they learned the hard way. they had the choice to pay they chose not too… their loss.
Raheem G.: they were following orders man, give em a break.
Genaire: So if you are behind on luck due to this engineered economic crisis and are without a job it’s ok to just be homeless now?
Rayn: This whole unnecessary situation was created by the strangle-hold monopoly that our local governments maintain over almost all of our civil services nowadays. Too bad there isn’t a REAL FREE MARKET with REAL FREE CHOICE. If there was, some business savy person (or even one dedicated to helping others) would formulate healthy competition to the government-based solution, even by offering a DIFFERENT VERSION of the SAME SERVICE – perhaps a “PAY-PER-USE” version. And, if you think that forms of INDEPENDENCE from governmental oversight sounds impossible, then take a history lesson, because that is exactly how we lived BEFORE our government began ENCROACHING upon our FREEDOMS!
Honestly, with all of the economic issues America is facing right now, if the elected officials in this Tennesse town were intelligent, they would simply charge an INDIVIDUAL RATE to those not interested in subscribing to (or can’t afford) what is, by all technical definitions, a “fire insurance plan” for $75 a year. Why does the State’s SINGLE-OPTION MONOPOLY go UNQUESTIONED as somehow “good” or “necessary”? Choose to pay or get nothing? HOW EXACTLY IS THAT CHOICE!? Obviously, what is at work here is NOT CAPITALISM, but instead, TYRANNICAL STATE-SANCTIONED CORPORATISM (also known as FASCISM)!
Stacie T.: Forget the $75 for a minute here. A fire is a public danger. The job of the fire department is to protect the public from the danger of fire. They failed to do so by watching an escalating fire burn. This resulted in the damage of the neighbor’s property. This will, no doubt, cause the neighbor’s fire insurance premiums to go up and cost them a great deal in both anguish and repairs. If I was that neighbor, I’d be sueing the city/fire department for negligence for allowing the fire to spread in the first place. Enough claims like that and that $75 a year will no longer be an issue.
Earlene E.: maybe they didnt have the 75 dollars
thats a shame
its just like at the hospital if u dont have insurance and u have an emergency dont think about going to the nearest hospital u better head on over to county hospital.
Genaire: Awesome glad to see people with some sense!
Earlene E.: I’m with u on that one Stacie
Raheem G.: A common example of a free rider problem is defense spending: no one person can be excluded from being defended by a state’s military forces, and thus free riders may refuse or avoid paying for being defended, even though they are still as well guarded as those who contribute to the state’s efforts. Therefore, it is usual for governments to avoid relying on volunteer donations, using taxes and, in some countries, conscription instead.
Despite the fact they may be prepared to contribute $75, they can avoid doing so in hope that they will receive the benefit for no personal expense.
Raheem G.: Listen Its not the Fire departments fault. $75 a year for fire protection.. they chose not to pay, they got burned. dont feel srry for them. The man said so himself he thought they would put it out anyway.
Raheem G.: Cranick said he “forgot” to pay his subscription fee, and, as a result, firefighters did nothing to save his property.
Genaire: I read a huffington post article and they quoted him saying that he forgot to pay it.
Stacie T.: If the government supplying the services wasn’t over-run with corruption and waste, the taxes we all pay would be more than enough to pay for services such as having a destructive, uncontrolled blaze put out in your home, medical insurance for all, a proper education for our children and everything else we need and they ignore. Instead, they cry poverty while federal, state and city money(OUR MONEY) is blown on hookers, cocaine and more bombs. This is inexcusable on the part of the fire department. They stood and watched as a public danger claimed one person’s home and moved on to the next. People could have been killed. Would someone’s life be worth the $75 to the mayor? I’ll bet it would. EVERYONE deserves protection from the city if their house is burning to the ground and every person on that street deserved to know that the fire department was going to ensure ALL of their safety by putting out the flames IMMEDIATLY.
Genaire: I couldn’t have said it better myself Stacie.
Stacie T.: Why, thank you 🙂
Raheem G.: What are u talking about.. @ stacie.. they pay the $75 fee because it DOES NOT come ot of their taxes.
Raheem G.: ur gettin off the point. the fact at hand is he didnt pay for a service, why should u be mad he didnt get it. Wouldnt u be mad if u paid for the service, he didnt, but got it for free anyway?
Genaire: What she’s saying is that or taxes would cover the cost of fire insurance if or government wasn’t run by thieves.
Raheem G.: stop running of emotions and look at thing for what they are… nothing is FREE in america.
Raheem G.: but thats not the point.. in tenn. they pay a service fee instead of being taxed.. its once a year, and u get the service as much as needed.
he didnt pay he didnt get it. everyone wants to talk about the gov.. this and that. bottomline he didnt pay he didnt get it.
Stacie T.: I’m sure they pay taxes and what are taxes for if not government protection from danger? That was the cause of their invention.
Genaire: What we are all mad about is our taxes which are extremely inflated in the first place due to corruption aren’t covering what they should be covering. We are also wondering what had come of this nation where they would key someones house burn down and a family become homeless due to 75 dollars which could have been taken by the fire department upon arrival but they felt they needed to punish that family.
Raheem G.: but the point is: anytime u pay a fee such as this one, IT IS NOT COMMING OUT OF UR TAXES. thats why they pay the fee, the fire fighters the equipment, all need to be paid for. so everyone in the community pays $75 a year.
Genaire: Yea nothing is free we pay inflated taxes. Did you know we are presently paying the salaries of the Somalian army that’s your 75 dollars right there.
Genaire: The point is or taxes are high enough to cover it but they squander the money on shit the minority of this country doesn’t agree with.
Genaire: The point is they could have taken the money on the spot but they chose to punish him.
Genaire: The point is he could have been billed for the service.
Genaire: The point is a family is homeless.
Genaire: The point is my points can go on and on against this horrible action from these fire fighter.
Genaire: The point is in this so called democracy you would be in the minority which would make it wrong if a vote was taken.
Stacie T.: This one IS off topic, but did anyone know that the city of New York 911 emergency ambulance service does not accept all medical coverage including local 3 electrical workers union medical insurance? A man with 15 years in a union doing electrical work for city schools and major government buildings got hit with a bill for over $700 for a 4.5 minute city ambulance ride and there’s not a damn thing he can do about it. How’s that for a slap in the face?
Genaire: Its not off topic. My point in posting this article was to point out how fucked America is now so I find that extremely relevant.
Raheem G.: BUT IF he paid no property taxes, AND elected NOT to pay the $75.00 fee then yes – let his house butn, just try getting future fire-fighting fees from anyone else if you put out a fire of someone who DIDN’T pay.
WHY is this so hard to understand???
Genaire: Yea RAHEEM why is it so hard for you to understand that you shouldn’t let someones house burn down along with the deaths of the animals that remained inside while they stood by and did nothing.
Stacie T.: Genaire, that was my step father with the ambulance issue, BTW. Raheem, it seems you are finding it hard to understand that all the people on that street were put in danger by the fact that those “firefighters” didn’t put out those flames regardless of any fees. It’s not about this one man’s house burning because he didn’t pay. It’s about the PUBLIC danger that the fire caused by being allowed to continue burning.
Raheem G.: and thats why its called the free rider problem. did u even read the article Stacie? they responded to the call of the persons house that was next door because he paid. If people knew that they would get the service without paying everyone would do it.
Stacie T.: And he actually got 2 bills because he felt a little better by the time the EMT’s got there and said he didn’t want to go. They left and were still outside my mom’s house in the vehicle when his breathing got bad again, and charged him double because they re-entered the home.
Genaire: Dam sorry to hear that Stacie 🙁. Raheem he was not asking for them to do it for free, he offered them the money they refused it to punish him, never mind the fact that he paid late he was willing to pay.
Stacie T.: So, a 97 year old woman living off Fancy Feast who only has a house because she bought it for next to nothing 50 years ago should burn because she doesn’t have an extra $75? Or should this protection be included in all the taxes paid throughout her and her dead husband’s life?
Genaire: Thank god you was going to school and was able to get school insurance Raheem or I goes it would have been ok for your hand to just remain broke cause you don’t have insurance.
Raheem G.: well, we as new yorkers pay this tax with every paycheck.. they pay $75 a year. HE FORGOT TO PAY.. (which was prolly bullshit) he got burned. its not mandatory. u choose to pay for it or not.. so the old lady if she was smart would pay. or if she lived in NY it comes outta her taxes.. if she doesnt pay taxes.. it comes outta OUR taxes.
Genaire: As I mentioned before I make decent money yet I have been unable to pay all of my bills on time and yes I have in the past forgotten to pay some bills all together. I keep an alarm set for every bill and even then some slip under the radar but I guess that comes with age and being a human being.
Rayn: As I already said, the POINT is that THERE IS NO REAL FREE-CHOICE!!!!!! With the government having a MONOPOLY on the CIVIL SERVICE of FIREFIGHTING, the only thing this man had the ability to “choose” was WHETHER OR NOT TO PAY! That is TYRANNY and COERCION, not FREE MARKET and CAPITALISM!!!! And, to prove the TRUE FASCISM of the situation, the man TRIED TO PAY ON THE SPOT, but was refused:
Firefighters Watch As Home Burns: Gene Cranick’s House Destroyed In Tennessee Over $75 Fee:
According to the article, “Cranick says he offered to pay whatever it would take. The plea fell on deaf ears. Hours later, the home was gone. So were three dogs and a cat.”
That is what us NORMAL PEOPLE would call “PUNISHMENT.” This was not a money issue, as was the point in my first response post. As I said, if cash flow was the case, the situation would have been at least been opportunistically “capitalized on” by the state. However, the COWARDS-THAT-BE were not interested in money, but, instead, BLIND OBEDIENCE TO the ARBITRARY EXERCISING OF POWER by their INDIFFERENT, BLOATED BUREAUCRACY.
Before governments began stifling people with their unjust rules and regulations, creating monopolies for themselves, while disenfranchising the public, we HAD HIGHLY FUNCTIONAL SYSTEMS of civil service. People even used to be able to keep water tanks on their property to fight their own fires. Now, permits and other forms of ARTIFICIAL SCARCITY give the government the right to control all aspects of our lives, down to the last detail. People used to have volunteer firefighters that were funded purely through voluteer work and charity, not the FORCE of “TAXES” or “FEES.” And, it worked! Historically, LOGIC and FREE-WILL have always been held in MUCH higher regards than FORCE, because while the former qualities encourage more of the same goodness, the latter encourages more bad behavior! KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING have always been the strongest means of forming TRUE COOPERATION in society, not COERCION!
Raheem G.: Honestly I dnt like the idea of someone getting away with something i cant. hell if i have to pay so should they. Im not heartless it messed up the house burned down. but i dnt blame the fire fighters or the city officials. he didnt pay. I guess if i forget to do my home work its the teachers fault i get an F
Stacie T.: And when she dies because it’s fire protection or the 20% for her high blood pressure meds that medicare doesn’t cover? Where do we draw the line between free rider and unable? Also, refer to Genaire’s comment on how he told the emergency operator that he was willing to pay whatever it takes for them to come and help him.
Stacie T.: And you still haven’t addressed my point that people in the surrounding houses could have been killed. This is not water delivery we’re talking about where you don’t get to shower if you don’t pay. This is a serious danger where people can die.
Genaire: I don’t even know how to respond to your last comment Raheem smfh!
Raheem G.: and when I fail my class if i beg and plead for to give me another assignmnt, if she refuses thats her fault also?… The government doesnt have a monopoly on fire fighting.. the fire started in two pails not even close to the house.. (he was prolly burning something) and it spread to his barn then his homw. Hell he tried to put it out himself he failed.. (thats why we have a fire department) are any of u willing to run into a burning home? thats why there are people who are PAID to do these jobs.
Raheem G.: ok G if thats the case then next time u get a check and see all the money that gets taken out.. well just remember theres someone out there who isnt paying any taxes and they get the same service u get… WHY because ur paying for them.
Genaire: Actually any and every one in the navy are trained fire fighter. I’ve had to put out a few fire in my day. Was qualified all the way up to investigator and yes I would have helped the man, with or with out the 75 dollars.
Raheem G.: they get a free ride off or u.
Rayn: Raheem, a better analogy would be: If you forget to write out your homework, but know all the information, and are able to show the teacher the day that the homework is due, and the teacher gives you a failing grade, then IT IS the TEACHER’S FAULT, who places more VALUE on ARBITRARY BLIND OBEDIENCE to “RULES” than on the REAL POINT of his/her JOB: TO TEACH!
Genaire: What we have been saying is if trillians aren’t spent on wars that on 34% of America agrees with then they would have more then enough to pay for fire insurance out of taxes.
Stacie T.: Actually, I’d be willing to do whatever it takes to ensure someone’s safety who needed it and I don’t need to collect $75 for it. This past Saturday there was a huge accident where a van full of people turned over and slid from E24th street to Bedford Avenue around the corner from my mother’s house. She ran and kicked the back window in with the help of some boys playing in the park. Then she helped pull 4 teenagers, their father and their pregnant mother out of the van not knowing if it was going to catch fire and explode or not. Then she calmed the teenaged daughter so in shock that she temporarily lost her vision until police and EMT’s got there. Where’s her $75?
Genaire: And as fucked as my finances are if someone needed money from me to save them from being evicted I would give it to them. I have hundreds of dollars out on loan right now for friends and family to remain housed.
Raheem G.: Now that is understandable… but as an adult. if ur given an assignment do it. i dnt need to be babied. if i mess up i deal with the consequiences. I had a teacher who wouldnt take an emailed assignment cause it was 6min late.. hey my fault. i cant get mad at the system. i can try and talk to her but if she refuses i have to deal with it.. its MY LIFE on the line. IT was his HOME he shouldnt have forgotten
Raheem G.: Stacy, well too bad she wasnt in tenn.
Genaire: Its not really free Raheem. It costs more to house people on homeless shelters.
Rayn: And, the goverment DOES have a monopoly on FIREFIGHTING, Raheem. It is fallacy to compare the single efforts of this man to the efforts of a team of FIREFIGHTERS with the CORRECT EQUIPMENT. If the government did not have a MONOPOLY, this man would have the TRUE CHOICE to call another non-governmental firefighting organization to help him. One that WOULD HAVE TAKEN HIS MONEY ON THE SPOT, because they would be able to offer a PER-USE VERSION of what the government FORCES into an “INSURANCE PLAN” that not everyone can afford, or can keep up with, because of the red-tape and paperwork of BUREAUCRACY. Some people want to live MORE ORGANICALLY, and SHOULD HAVE THAT CHOICE!
Raheem G.: per use? seriously $75 a year to use as many times as needed? thats not fair?
Raheem G.: Anyway im goin to class argue with u guys later…
Stacie T.: From how my mother described them, I doubt that family had an extra $75 laying around, so if she had been in TN, I guess she should have just left them there to burn if the van exploded.