The following debate originally took place upon the Facebook wall of family…
Sara: I refuse a man-made vaccine for a man-made illness!
Kathleen M.: Prove to me that it is man-made, that the idea isn’t just another conspiracy theory, and I might consider listening to you. The vaccine isn’t any worse than the regular flu shot. Yes, you get a little buggy from it, but most healthy people are not going to die from it. What advantage does it give the government to kill or seriously impair most of their taxpayers?
I’m all for holistic medicine, but most of these guys are just quacks.
In the end, just because something is a vaccine does not make it “man-made.” We do not have the understanding to alter genetics of something as complicated as a virus to get a specific result.
Rayn: Good post, Sara! Since March of this year, when Baxter International almost caused a worldwide pandemic after it shipped vaccines contaminated with deadly avian flu to 18 different countries, I’ve been warning others about a concerted effort by certain pharmaceutical corporations to infect the entire populace with a deadly virus under the pretext of a “vaccination program.” I’ve also talked about the dangers of taking any type of vaccination for the “swine flu,” or allowing the government to implement any mass vaccination program using the help of these particular companies, whether in the name of “the public good,” or under the pretense of a pandemic.
I would like to respond to your comment, Kathleen, but I will first have to note address the fact that the word “conspiracy” is not really the dirty word you make it out to be. And, you should be very careful not to double-think on this issue. Remember, the official story explaining the events of 9/11 revolves around a “conspiracy” involving 20 Muslim men and their leader, who changed their appearances and hid their religious beliefs in order to blended into our society for years so that they could be trained by our civilian flight schools in order to carry out hijackings to use planes as bombs against critical civilian and military building structures, so as to disrupt the entire way of life of millions of individuals and start international wars, with the effects reaching and wide, all under the fundamentalist belief that Islam is the only true religion of the world, and that all non-believers must perish, or be punished, for the crime of non-conversion. It is the “motherload” of all conspiracies, not only because of it’s level of planning, but also because of its level of success If you are maintaining that a conspiracy is true if and only if it is used as an explanation of events by the proven liars we call our government, then your logic is completely flawed.
Kathleen, I’d like you to read the following articles (originally posted to my Facebook page at the times they occurred), so that you have a full background of what has been taking place since April. Consider the following chain of events:
Vaccines as Biological Weapons? Live Avian Flu Virus Placed in Baxter Vaccines Sent to 18 Countries:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=23431314945&id=35590531315&ref=share
Only A Few Months Before Almost the Company Spread the Avian Flu to 18 Countries, Baxter’s Cell Culture-Based H5N1 (Avian Flu) Pandemic Vaccine Received EMEA Positive Opinion:
http://biopharminternational.findpharma.com/biopharm/Baxters-Cell-Culture-Based-Pandemic-Flu-Vaccine-Re/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/575432?ref=25
Swine flu: Baxter seeks Swine Flu Sample to Begin Work On Vaccine:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-04-27/news/0904260184_1_swine-flu-vaccine-makers-bird-flu
Baxter Files Swine Flu Vaccine Patent a YEAR AHEAD of Swine Flu Outbreak:
http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?start=2760&end=2780&view=yes&id=3581#newspost
March 24, 1976: After One Death, Ford Orders Swine-Flu Shots for All, 30 Die, 500 Permanently Injured:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/03/dayintech_0324
Legal Immunity Set For Swine Flu Vaccine Makers:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31971355/
Overuse of Vaccines, Anti-Flu Drugs May Result in Human Calamity:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi114.html
Washington Post: Swine Flu Vaccine Will Contain Mercury:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/washington-post-swine-flu-vaccine-will-contain-mercury.html
Kathleen, regardless of whether or not the “swine flu” vaccine will be worse, it will be just as bad as any other untested, unnecessary vaccine (i.e. Hepatitis B & HPV) offered to the population as a whole, because, aside from promoting the emergence of variant strains of influenza, the neurotoxic effects produced by the amounts of squalene, mercury-based thermisol, and/or formaldyhyde contained within these adjuvant-type vaccines far outweight the benefits of simple changes in lifestyle in order to prevent these pathogens from infecting the body. In other words, since “healthy people are not going to die” from influenza, they should not even be offered, let alone given, a vaccination for it. Besides this, noone should ever be forced to take a vaccination under any circumstances whatsoever, whether by their job, or by the government. Unless it is airborne, or highly contagious, only individuals in risk group should be given the option of taking a vaccination for a specific pathogen, and should also be fully warned of all possible side-effects. That would mean that only the young and the old, and those with compromised immune systems should be given the option of taking an influenza vaccination, and all of this should happen ONLY during a time of pandemic.
In regards to your question:
“What advantage does it give the government to kill or seriously impair most of their taxpayers?”
The articles that I posted above should answer this. It is not “the government,” as you say, that is behind this – it is the heads of certain pharmaceutical corporations, who use their company money and influence to lobby for the implementation of governmental policies favorable to their agenda, which is to profit from disease and death, as well as engage in depopulation as a means of achieving one of the goals behind the pseudo-science of eugenics. And, they have done this in the past on more than one occasion! Aside from the above mentioned example of Baxter’s avian-flu-infected-vaccines, also recall the following incidents:
Bayer Sued By Hemophiliacs – Accused Of Conspiring To Sell Contaminated Blood Products:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/03/health/main556653.shtml
New “Tuskegee-Like Experiment” Planned with Pneumococcal Pneumonia Vaccine:
http://vaccines.net/pneumoco.htm
Even as we discuss the issue now, the stocks of the companies who produce the “swine-flu” vaccine are soaring.
Kathleen, if you are really “all for holistic medicine,” then you should not be deterred in utilizing it by any amount of “quacks,” nor should you use it as a “reason” to vaccinate yourself for influenza, as opposed to eating healthy, getting sun and engaging in exercise to prevent illness. There are quacks in every field of medicine, and beyond. Just remember that they are only in business because they ride on the coattails of the fact that there are, indeed, many actual, real, effective holistic disease prevention methods and remedies out there, and many yet to be discovered!
Kathleen M.: First of all, I’m not a child. Don’t talk down to me as if you think I am. Nor is it necessary to rip apart my semantics to look for things to argue. My usage of “conspiracy” refers specifically to the extreme beliefs that there is a Dark Cabal within either the government or big business that runs the world. My belief that 9/11 was perpetrated by a criminal conspiracy based in the Al Qaeda terrorist organization is different from my arguments against the radical opinion that Big Business Is Out To Kill Us.
Second, although I am in favour of holistic medicine, it does not believe that I will go holistic or naturopathic rather than see a licensed doctor. It means that I will examine all options and determine which one is best for me at that moment. The requirements for naturopathy and holistic practitioners is *much* lower than for Osteopaths or Allopaths. However, that is an entirely different discussion that I could spend days on. As an example, I can point out the problems with St. John’s Wort, which has been shown to cause depression and mood problems more often than it solves it, and the biggest recent issue with Ephedra, also known as Ma Huang, which caused severe heart problems, even death.
I get myself vaccinated for various strains of influenza as often as I can, for several reasons. First, because I have a nasty tendency to get *very* sick if I get an upper respiratory disease. Add in gastro symptoms, and I’m likely to be laid up for far longer than I can afford, and possibly end up with an even more severe illness, such as pneumonia. I was also vaccinated for everything as a child, as required by my public and my private school (as well as various camps and sports programmes), and have shown no signs of them negatively affecting me or my sister, who received the same vaccines, plus more now that she is a med student working in a hospital. There is not a single valid study (large sample population, uncorrupted data, and unequivocal results with a small standard deviation) that shows the preservatives in vaccines cause any sort of neurological defect in children or adults. The amount of any one toxin, when taken cumulatively for *all* the vaccines or shots one gets in one’s life, is less than what we are exposed to on a regular basis, being urban dwellers.
Rather than address your assertions about Big Pharma and a government-sponsored “eugenics” programme, I’ll simply end with a quote believed to be from Robert Heinlein, which I feels adequately sums up my opinion:
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
Or, in some cases, laziness and an unwillingness to do what is Right, due to the effort involved.
Rayn: Ha ha! Wow! First of all, Kathleen, I simply provided you with information. Your attempts to classify this as talking to you “like a child” is questionable. Please provide at least one example, if you’d like your accusation to even begin to stick. On this same note, I also did not “rip apart your semantics,” I merely used your words, interspersed with fact and citations in order to make my point more clear based on concepts and ideas you mentioned. There was no effort whatsoever on my part to “look for something to argue” about with you. After taking the time to read all of the responses to Sara’s post, including yours, I decided that I would join the debate that was taking place, and share with you information that I have come across in my research.
When it comes to “conspiracy,” the world is filled with it. Therefore, noone can simply outright dismiss the possibility of its practice, as if it were some unproven or non-existent theory. We have hundreds of laws on the books that illegalize all types of “conspiracies,” and every year, plenty of individuals in the US are charged and convicted with “conspiracy” to commit some type of crime. Whether it be 9/11, Bush’s WMD lie, Martha Stewart’s insider trading, or the Enron Scandal, “conspiracy” accounts for many well-publicized crimes commited by some of the most wealthy and prominent figures of our time. Therefore, one must STILL provide facts in order to dismiss an idea, no matter how politicized the word “conspiracy” has become. Obviously, believing the 9/11 story is, indeed, “different from [your] arguments against the opinion that Big Business Is Out To Kill Us.” I have never claimed otherwise. What I actually did was point out that it is double-think to believe one story based in “conspiracy” because it is sold to you by lying “official sources,” while attempting to dismiss another simply by virtue of the fact that it is a “conspiracy” in itself.
In regards to your claims against holistic and naturopathic medicine, I can easily show you case after case after case of individuals becoming sick, with thousands upon thousands dying as a direct result Big Pharma-manufactured “medicines” prescribed by “licensed doctors.” Any sickness associate with St. John’s Wort or death associated with Ephedra pales in comparison to the amount of death and sickness caused by the Vioxx fiasco or the Zyprexa fiasco! However, I take the stand that all four of these drugs are are either useless or dangerous, as I don’t take sides when it comes to fact. Whether a fake naturopathic cure, or a toxic “officially licensed” medicine, I will always stay away, and warn others.
Check the numbers for yourself:
Vioxx Deaths, (89,000-140,00 people):
http://www.adrugrecall.com/vioxx/death.html
Zyprexa Deaths, (3,400 people):
http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2008/11/fda_finds_zyprexa_has_killed_3400_people_worse_than_vioxx.html
(update: archived copy of above link located here: http://web.archive.org/web/20120306192858/http://www.furiousseasons.com/archives/2008/11/fda_finds_zyprexa_has_killed_3400_people_worse_than_vioxx.html)
Check out these court settlements involving other dangerous prescription drugs:
Drug Lawsuit News Archive:
http://www.adrugrecall.com/news.html
Let us also not forget the links I already showed you (if you even took the time to read them):
Bayer Sued By Hemophiliacs – Accused Of Conspiring To Sell Contaminated Blood Products:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/03/health/main556653.shtml
New “Tuskegee-Like Experiment” Planned with Pneumococcal Pneumonia Vaccine:
http://vaccines.net/pneumoco.htm
In regards to your claim:
“There is not a single valid study (large sample population, uncorrupted data, and unequivocal results with a small standard deviation) that shows the preservatives in vaccines cause any sort of neurological defect in children or adults.”
This simply is not true. Though it is true that there simply hasn’t been enough adequate research into the short-term and long-term effects of intravenously introduced neurotoxins into the human body of babies, children and adults, that is no excuse, as there are still a few informative studies on the topic, and some are even recent. We should be asking ourselves why these studies weren’t done much sooner, considering how widely-administered vaccines are in today’ society. Why must the populace must pay to play the role of guinea pig for Big Pharma? Another question we could ask ourselves is why companies would put inferior, toxic substances in health products when there are plenty more healthy alternatives that are not being pursued. Sadly, you will discover that it simply comes down to a matter of cost. That’s right! Mercury is the cheapest substace that can possibly be used to serve the function of an “antibacterial,” also allowing for the least amount of live sample to be used, too. This is the only reason that it is used! Just as is the case with the use of mercury-containing high-fructose corn syrup as an additive to replace sugar, corporations always look at the bottom line, which is profit. They use formaldyhyde because it is the cheapest material to function as an “antifungal.” Interestingly enough, companies could just as easily use silver, which is much more effective, as it is antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal (a rarity in nature), and effectively replace all of the toxic ingredients, decrease complications and production time, and maybe even boost the immune system afterwards, as opposed to throwing it into disarray.
Study Proves Link Between Thimerosal and Neurotoxicity:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=66873249945&id=35590531315&ref=share
“The amount of any one toxin, when taken cumulatively for *all* the vaccines or shots one gets in one’s life, is less than what we are exposed to on a regular basis, being urban dwellers.”
This, too, is not true. You are not taking into consideration all of the medical aspects involved in the absorption of toxins into the body. If you are referring to air pollutants, then you must factor in the fact that these types of toxins are filtered through the body using the lungs and the liver, while the neurotoxins contained within vaccines are injected directly into the body, allowing them to flood the central nervous system and brain without first passing through any of the body’s natural filters – its first line of defense against invasion. In the history of mankind, this is a very recent phenomenom, and the long-term effects, even with the studies I have shown, have not been adequate, when compared with the amount of individuals being injected with these neurotoxins every day in the name of “health.” It is that simple.
You made the comment:
“Rather than address your assertions about Big Pharma and a government-sponsored ‘eugenics’ programme”
Well, that’s too bad, as I brought up the issue for the express purpose of answering your previous question, which was:
“What advantage does it give the government to kill or seriously impair most of their taxpayers?”
In this context, what I described was perfectly accurate. Taken out of context, I’m sure you’ll paint my “assertions” into “just another conspiracy theory,” even in the face of Baxter’s Avian-Flu-Infected-Vaccine fiasco, which goes beyond “malice,” and constitutes nothing less than bioterrorism and a crime against humanity, (though it was barely investigated, and went widely unreported by the mainstream media)!
Rayn: If you’re at all interested in fact, read the following articles, and you will discover that America adopted sterilization laws (some of which remained right up to the 1970s) in order to usher in the fraudulent “science” of eugenics as a matter of policy:
Dark Chapter of American History: U.S. Court Battle Over Forced Sterilization:
http://www.commondreams.org/views/072100-106.htm
Eugenics Laws Restricting Immigration:
http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/html/eugenics/essay9text.html
I’d worry less about the motivation for the misdeeds of Big Pharma, whether it be stupidity, laziness, or alternatively, something more sinister, and focus more on the facts that they are engaging in these misdeeds every day, and must be exposed. Doing this will help individuals to make informed choices about which medical procedures they are willing to consent to.
By the way, Kathleen, I forgot to mention the fact that your other claim was false, wherein you stated:
“We do not have the understanding to alter genetics of something as complicated as a virus to get a specific result.”
If you’ll read the following article, you’ll see that we do, in fact, have knowledge on this subject, and have been researching it for at least a decade. We are currently successfully experimenting with it even now:
US Develops Lethal New Viruses:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4318-us-develops-lethal-new-viruses.html
If you decide to actually read the article, take note of the following:
“Ramshaw’s team made its initial discovery while developing contraceptive vaccines for sterilising mice and rabbits without killing them. The researchers modified the mousepox virus by adding a gene for a natural immunosuppressant called IL-4, expecting this would boost antibody production.”
Interesting…
Also note the following:
“…Research revealed that the modified pox viruses are not contagious, he says. That is good news in the sense that these viruses could not cause ecological havoc by wiping out mouse or rabbit populations around the world if they escaped from a lab.”
While the point the article makes is true, it really doesn’t apply if vaccines distributed all over the world become “accidentally” infected with these genetically-modified, deadly viruses, in a situation that plays out just like the Baxter incident.
(All original portions of this work, by Rayn Kleipe, are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License, while all redistributed links, images, sounds, videos, and writings are protected under 17 U.S.C. § 107: Fair Use, or under Public Domain)
